Goyf vs Rhino and Tasigur
Modern forum
Posted on March 10, 2015, 4:38 p.m. by jpeachesd
Iv been away from the standard scene for a while, and Im a little hesatant to pick up a playset of Tarmogoyf after reading articles about Siege Rhino and Tasigur, the Golden Fang being just as good if not better then Goyf in modern. I knew the rhino was a power card in standard, and this is the first I've seen Tasigur, so I guess my question really is how much do these standard powerhouses stand up in modern and are they a better option to pick up over goyf?
Servo_Token says... #3
So your path to a buying a goyf should look something like this:
Strangleroot Geist - Putrid Leech - Kitchen Finks - Scavenging Ooze - Dark Confidant - Tarmogoyf
Any of those cards are fine replacements, but as mentioned, they should be run alongside rhinos and tasigurs. I personally prefer scavenging ooze over goyf in all circumstances, but that's just personal preference.
March 10, 2015 4:44 p.m.
Dark confidant in a deck with Tasigur? Taz is then hole reason most decks have moved away from confidant.
Goyf is the best because his mana cost is unconditional.
Next is siege rhino because of his etb.
Last is Taz. Whilst very strong his delve cost means you can only run 1 or 2
March 10, 2015 4:52 p.m.
PhyrexianScience says... #5
Tarmogoyf is arguably the best 2-drop in modern. It fits plenty of strategies, is immensely splashable and gets around a bit of damage based removal sometimes.
Siege Rhino is really good, although it's really only playable in Junk Midrange and Tribal Zoo due to mana insensitivity. It gets around most burn except Combust, resists Abrupt Decay and is a wall generally. The 4 power trample really isn't bad either, and not to mention the drain 3 really can set you ahead of Aggro and Burn.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang is pretty much a 1 mana Tarmogoyf in some decks. He demands plenty of fetches/spells to be played for him to come out for 1 mana. I think he shines in control decks more than he does in midrange, since control has no problems filling its graveyard. The ability to get back spells each turn is pretty good as well.
In my opinion, one doesn't need Tarmogoyf to have a successful deck; my Junk Midrange performs fine without him. Granted, he wouldn't hurt the deck and maybe even help a bit, but the $200 price tag is just too damn high, and you'd be dumb to invest now since Modern Masters 2 has him and it will be an unlimited print run.
March 10, 2015 4:52 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #6
Kitchen Finks is real good. Play that, not Bob. Finks is good.
March 10, 2015 4:54 p.m.
Yep, mm2 is a larger print run than mm1, but by no means unlimited
March 10, 2015 6:07 p.m.
selesvyaloverer8 says... #9
people have run Blasphemous Act and bob in the same deck. taz is nothing compared to that. But it does seem like a big nonbo especially in a burn heavy meta.
March 10, 2015 6:19 p.m.
People have run a 9 drop with Bob? Are you joking? Link me please. I'm going to have to call bullshit I'm very happy to be proven wrong.
Not running Bob with Taz is very rational. Burn is a good deck. So is rdw. You can afford to lose more than 25% of your life in a single draw step. Especially when you run a lot of shocks, dismember, and thoughtseize. It's ridiculous. I ran Phyrexian Obliterator for a while and even that had me on the edge sometimes. It's a big deal. The other thing is that Bob just doesn't matter anymore. Most of the control spells you draw can't remove the opponents rhinos so it's useless, and you don't want Bob versus aggro. It's better to play creatures that are hard to remove than run card draw in the hope of drawing the few spells that do remove those creatures, if that makes sense.
March 10, 2015 6:24 p.m.
So many typos.
I meant to say 'BUT I'm happy to be proven wrong'
And 'CANT afford to lose 25%'
March 10, 2015 6:26 p.m.
Goyf is modern's most flexible card. He sees play in Tarmotwin combo decks, he sees play in heavy aggro zoo, and most importantly he sees play in Junk midrange builds. That's what gives him the price tag. Depending on the deck you're building you may be able to find something to substitute, but there is no true replacement for a Goyf. Granted, I would wait on investing because there's a good chance we may see some in MMA2, but I wouldn't wait much longer than that because his price can really only go up from here.
March 10, 2015 6:26 p.m.
But yeah Chiefbell's first comment pretty much hit the nail on the head.
March 10, 2015 6:27 p.m.
Goyf is the most efficient creature in Magic. He wins and gets bigger simply by you playing magic. There is no equal or substitute, sorry. Goyf is infinitely better than Rhino for various reasons but if you can't afford them I would say use Finks, Scooze and Rhino to make up for it.
March 10, 2015 6:47 p.m.
It's not necessarily that clear cut. Goyf can be interacted with via messing around with the graveyard, rhino can't. Goyf can be removed before he does a single thing, rhino can't. Goyf has variable toughness and is never a sure threat or blocker, rhino is.
There are some subtleties.
March 10, 2015 6:52 p.m.
ChiefBell I agree but trying to use one over the other is crazy. In tandem is the best option.
March 10, 2015 8:19 p.m.
cxseals1337 says... #17
ChiefBell I'm in agreement with you on running Dark Confidant together with Tasigur, the Golden Fang; if TAZ were the only large drop these decks were running BoB would still be a viable card in modern jund/ abzan however with abzan decks rotating toward a larger CMC with Siege Rhino and Lingering Souls; the card advantage is simply not worth the life loss; Phyrexian Arena would be a far more suitable replacement. However in legacy BoB is still a beat stick card in decks like legacy BUG delver because there cmc almost never exceeds two with Maelstrom Pulse being one of the exceptions.
As for Tarmogoyf he is one of the strongest creature cards ever printed and he can easily be played in most any decks; before khans of takir came out he was even being splashed into splinter twin decks. if you feel like he is to much of a price burden it may be worth considering other decks that out preform decks like abzan or go toe to toe with them such as R/G tron or splinter twin, or even aura hexproof. However, if you wish to continue and still play abzan replacing the goyf spot with Voice of Resurgence, voice is removal resistant for the most part (an opponet will either use a Path to Exile on it or be forced to two-for-one it), in addition it can limit an opponent to sorcery speed or at least makes them reconsider countering spells you play on your turn. another viable replacement is a one of Polukranos, World Eater, who has been making some break outs in modern due to the high volume of Lingering Souls being played.
In any case before investing in such an expensive deck I recommend you write up a proxy deck and test it with some friends to ensure you really want to play this deck.
March 10, 2015 11:08 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #18
Goyf is literally always a good card. It was played in a RUG Delver deck with Snapcasters and Cruises. When it's playable in a deck which throws away its graveyard, you know it is great.
Also great in legacy.
March 11, 2015 2:13 a.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #19
Idk tasigur takes stuff away from goyf so I wouldn't recommend it. Id like my tasigur to be a 5/6 and me be able to drop another for the low price of 2 mana. There's some builds I'm working on I call Goyf aggro. Where you run walker, instant, sorc, land, creature. Mill everything out with a commune with the gods. Idk it's pretty neat to see when you have 3 5/6 goyfs. Along side rhino. Pretty neat
March 11, 2015 2:18 a.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #20
chica-aggro
There's a lot of other tech choices you can use like
Fuck lol I had a list of seven things and I just forgot lol well anyways that's it
March 11, 2015 2:23 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #21
Tasigur doesn't necessarily make Goyf worse. Your opponent has a graveyard, too.
March 11, 2015 3:05 a.m.
cxseals1337 says... #22
Also you don't have to delve if you have mana you aren't going to use shobe it in instead of delving away card types
March 11, 2015 8:36 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #23
ChiefBell gave up a very valuable bit of info, good thing I think most will miss it. xD
March 11, 2015 8:46 a.m.
ModernCentralPublic says... #24
Dark confidant? In a modern meta that is 15% burn/RDW, 15% splinter twin, and 60% aggro? No, absolutely no, there is a reason Jund wasn't going anywhere for a while here, and that's because Jund players refused to let go of their bobs until tasigur came out.
Bob is one of the most overpriced cards in the game now. His reign is over after a long time of being the top tier of his mana cost.
Goyf on the other hand is great. Everyone I've ever met has told me that they never regretted picking up a playset of goyfs because they are just so good. Rhinos and tasigurs are amazing cards too, but goyf is just proves time and time again how awesome he is. Something about attacking for 5 on turn 3 and 10 on turn 4 is just so satisfying, it makes it possible for junk/Jund to play an aggro game.
March 11, 2015 9:11 a.m.
Bob still sees legacy play. The only time a card becomes actually overpriced is when SCG overhypes or buys out the market of that particular card. Magic players need to stop using the word "overpriced" because nothing is really overpriced, it's just simple supply and demand. If Bob truly had a lesser demand than before, his price would have dropped.
March 11, 2015 10:42 a.m.
vishnarg: actually, you're assuming a simple economic system, when really you need to model it on a complex one.
For example, an added factor of a complex system is that sellers may wish to keep prices inflated even if demand falls. This is so they avoid a loss. They know that players will pay the higher price, just in lesser numbers, so they sit on stock at a high price and wait for it to be sold slowly, instead of quickly at a lower price. Buyer memory is a thing in a complex system, but not a single one.
March 11, 2015 10:55 a.m.
(You're the GOP obviously, and I have no idea what I'm talking about)
March 11, 2015 12:58 p.m.
I'm no expert. I just recognise that the market is sluggish.
March 11, 2015 1:01 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #31
Idk I've test played I just rather put something else in its space. I mean he's not the best thing in modern
March 11, 2015 2:12 p.m.
KrosanTusker says... #33
Long story short, 'Goyf is just the best. He's so good that even decks like Delver and Twin splash just for him. Arguably Tasigur is just as good -- Delver and Twin have started splashing for him too, which hints at his power level -- but you can't run too many of a legendaray creature that puts so much pressure on your resources.
ChiefBell I've not heard of Blasphemous Act in this context, but people have played Draco in the same deck as a Dark Confidant. Bob Maher once lost the Vintage Championships final to a Confidant revealing FoW, which isn't quite the same thing, but still pretty awful.
GlistenerAgent says... #2
Decks normally play four each of Rhino and Goyf, as well as 1-2 Tasigurs. If you can't afford Tarmogoyf, four Siege Rhino and 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fangs are pretty good. If Dark Confidant is affordable, play that instead.
March 10, 2015 4:40 p.m.