Grixis vs American control: whats better
Modern forum
Posted on Jan. 13, 2015, 10:57 p.m. by nutellaisgreaterthanlife
So my friend and I both play control decks. He plays grixis while I play american. We were wondering, if someone were to make a control deck, which color would be best besides red/blue. Black has targeted discard and opens killspells and Cruel Ultimatum, while white gives acess to lots of great sideboard cards, Path to Exile, Restoration Angel and a bunch of other great things. What is better in modern right now; grixis control or American control?
American is absolutely the better and more popular choice in Modern right now. Hardly anybody plays Grixis, especially in competitive environments.
January 13, 2015 11:03 p.m.
kingofcramers says... #4
With the abundance of tempo delver decks in the meta right now, I would say American Control has the slight edge. The printing of Treasure Cruise, and to a lesser extent, Dig Through Time, has given these decks (and other control builds) a resilience to discard effects that grixis control leans on (in Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, Duress, Cruel Ultimatum ect. Furthermore, the lifegain/removal of Lightning Helix is a great tool against said delver decks as well as zoo because it's almost always a Terminate anyway and the Healing Salve pushes its power level over the edge. If Treasure Cruise is banned from modern, grixis will gain the edge because the effect of its discard spells will increase.
January 13, 2015 11:06 p.m.
TristanTaylorsVoice says... #5
I would also like to point out that before Treasure Cruise, Grixis also had a worst mana base than American because the full set of fetchlands weren't available in modern yet: American had both Arid Mesa and Scalding Tarn while Grixis only had the latter. So if Treasure Cruise were to be banned I would expect a rise in Esper and Grixis control to emerge due to their suddenly more accessible mana bases (look at how much better Windswept Heath makes pod). Otherwise kingofcramers sums it up completely, discard is bad and life gain is good in this format.
January 13, 2015 11:48 p.m.
Sadly, Jeskai has access to the most efficient suite of removal in the format. They also have a much better range of finishers to chose from. Not only that, these creatures can also become utility pieces. For example, that Restoration Angel can quickly be used with a sided-in copy of Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. Celestial Colonnade is amazing. Supreme Verdict hoses Damnation. The list goes on...
January 13, 2015 11:50 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #7
Choosing which one to play in the meta, Jeskai, it has superior sideboard choices aagainst the titans of the format.
Then playing Grixis vs Jeskai, Grixis has access to Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver and Discard.
January 14, 2015 12:07 a.m.
TristanTaylorsVoice says... #9
Yeah, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver was sweet when jund and pod were still the top dogs, but with delver and burn variants everywhere it's just not the time for it. Much like its time in standard, it's worth is very meta dependent, and now it not the time for it.
January 14, 2015 12:27 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #10
Just look how many more points Jeskai decks have on this site.
Jeskai is far superior.
January 14, 2015 2:56 a.m.
R/W/U is better, but Grixis is way cooler.
Still, Grixis has access to some great cards, like Terminate, Countersquall, Blightning, and Rakdos Charm.
January 14, 2015 2:58 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #12
I disagree on the statement abount Vengeant vs Ashiok. The starting loyalties and Ashioks ability to +2 makes it much more annoying to deal with and leaving a control player empty handed is largely the same as leaving them with no land.
Also I didn't say Ashiok is good to main deck, but if you know your local meta and expect to find a lot of Control then its definitely worth the sideboard slot.
I agree with Jex.
January 14, 2015 3:25 a.m.
I've played both and would say American Control is better by far. The black in Grixis lets you play discard, but that doesn't help you answer threats already on the battlefield. This makes them shitty late game top decks.
Most of the white cards also do double duty as win conditions, something you don't get in black. The main example being Lightning Helix. Sure, Terminate kills anything larger than a Wild Nacatl, but you can't burn players should they be sitting on an empty board or playing control/combo. Even with nothing to blink, Restoration Angel is still a 3/4 flier that can quickly kill someone after they've been softened up by a few burn spells.
That was the main issue I had with Grixis while playing it. The deck's win conditions weren't as consistent. You ended up drawing too many irrelevant cards when your opponent had an empty hand/board. Drawing Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Scalding Tarn, and Terminate when your opponent was just waiting to draw Past in Flames or Scapeshift really sucked.
January 14, 2015 9:32 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #14
All all extremely valid points, Having most of your removal doubling as a semi win con is nice.
Restoration Angel is primarily found in a more midrange deck with a more proactive gameplan, But ya probably knew that :)
January 14, 2015 9:43 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #15
I think that Dig will make Grixis much better if someone bothers making a proper deck, and not just Cruel Control. Cruel Control, while super fun and hilarious, has been proven to not be a good deck by many people.
Of course, since this is the internet, a bunch of us could get together and work out the Grixis shell for PT/GP competitive level play.
January 14, 2015 noon
TristanTaylorsVoice says... #16
Faeries has recently adopted Pack Rat as a resilient instant speed threat, it would pull double duty in a control shell by allowing them to make use of dead Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize and fueling Dig Through Time. However I think the life gain, better threats and burn mode provided by U/W/R still makes it the best control deck in modern.
Grixis would probably be best as a tempo deck, either with faeries or a more ambitious delver shell.
January 14, 2015 1:17 p.m.
JexInfinite, what would this "proper" Grixis deck look like? Cruel Control has been a powerful archetype for a long time.
Anyways, I would be excited to be a part of a project to make a new and great Grixis deck, so that's a cool idea.
January 14, 2015 1:45 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #18
Cruel Control relies on slow cards which have not been particularly good for well over a year, and the namesake card, while fun, is rarely going to be cast. Cruel Control was a powerful archetype for a while, and it is better than Revelation, but using it requires the deck to work around it, making it more of a hindrance than a win-condition.
As for making the deck, we should do a similar thing to what Chief did with the Modern Format Primer; making a forum thread and discussing it a lot on there.
January 14, 2015 1:55 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #19
The main difference between Grixis and Jeskai control is Celestial Colonnade vs Creeping Tar Pit and black removal vs. Path to Exile and Restoration Angel. Despite costing more, Colonnade is much more resilient of a wincon. It comes down to a preference with regards to the second difference, but I think that the white sideboard cards (namely Stony Silence, Timely Reinforcements, Wear / Tear) and others) are better than the black ones.
January 14, 2015 2:53 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #20
GlistenerAgent You could fill a Jeskai sideboard entirely with white cards and not miss out on anything, but black can only do so much in sideboards.
January 14, 2015 3:47 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #21
Yeah, that's what I said: the white sideboard cards are better.
January 14, 2015 5:03 p.m.
nutellaisgreaterthanlife says... #22
Actually I would love to help make a sweet grixis deck. Email me at [email protected] if you are interested
January 14, 2015 6:45 p.m.
nutellaisgreaterthanlife says... #23
I would totally be down with creating a sweet gixis deck with y'all. Email me at [email protected] if you are interested.
January 14, 2015 6:47 p.m.
Hickorysbane says... #24
Unfortunetly Jeskai cause I was really hoping to make a good Grixis deck in modern. The biggest problems I noticed were not having Sphinx's Revelation and having manalands that died to Lightning Bolt. After switching losing Terminate isn't a big deal cause you get Lightning Helix for half the meta and Path to Exile (and maybe even that new blue exile spell that lets them manifest) for anything else. Honestly the only thing it had over Jeskai was Cruel Ultimatum, but Patriotic has numerous things that do those effects seperatly (except for the discard) and probably cheaper. Oh, and white has some of, probably the, best sideboard options.
January 14, 2015 7:49 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #25
@PrecintSix6Six Note that Jeskai decks have stopped playing Sphinx's Revelation, and that Cruel Ultimatum does do a reasonable impression. The manland thing and the better removal are important points, though.
January 14, 2015 7:51 p.m.
Hickorysbane says... #26
GlistenerAgent no Sphinx's Rev? Well then they must have other equivalent draw. Cruise and Dig? And didn't intentionally talk down the Ultimatum. I loved Cruel Ultimatum, especially if you could resolve it in a control match-up. But it alone wasn't enough for Grixis to win out :'( Honestly the win cons were the most upsetting part. Those poor little manalands tried but I never had enough to save them, well not usually at least. And rarely enough for them to actually win the game for me.
January 14, 2015 7:58 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #27
Yeah no Rev, May to slow in my opinion as Modern stands.
Dig is an adequate replacement.
January 14, 2015 8:21 p.m.
I honestly like Sphinx's Revelation in U/W/x control decks over Dig Through Time. For one, you have a full set of options for Snapcaster Mage targets. Number two: the life gain is significant in a plethora of match ups.
For example, grinding a burn deck so that you're both in top deck mode and then casting a Sphinx's Revelation for three or higher means they can't win. The same is true with Affinity, Zoo, etc. Dig Through Time allows you to see more cards, but Sphinx's Revelation takes away many of their outs.
It also scales better. I've frequently cast Sphinx's Revelation for five or more. I'd rather have five cards at random than the two out of seven of my choice. One could argue that control should be winning at that point. But, I'd counter with the argument you just got to refill your hand completely to fully close out the game.
That being said, I think if you're playing anything other than U/W/x, Dig Through Time is one of the best draw spells available to us in Modern.
January 14, 2015 11:25 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #30
All your mentioned scenarios rarely happen, Reducing an Affinity player to no hand is pretty much a guaranteed win and Burn has Treasure Cruise making the top deck war favor them. That being said, Timely and Firewalker mean that you can keep your life total relatively high after boarding regardless of having Rev or not, Its simply to slow, Being able to Dig for a Timely against burn is more valuable then getting your skullcracked trying to fire off a Rev.
January 14, 2015 11:37 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #31
All you guys are stupid for not playing Revelation. 6 mana draw 3, gain 3 life. That's a good card. The card advantage is great against blue, and lifegain against aggro. The only thing it isn't good against is midrange decks and pod, but even then, you have more time to screw around.
January 15, 2015 4:16 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #32
American all day red and black can't answer enchantments and blue only offers temp answers to them. This is the reason most competitive decks in modern splash white or green. Otherwise hate cards become auto loose cards.
January 15, 2015 10:56 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #33
American Control doesn't run it because they don't need it but they do have access to Dismember anyway.
IMO Ajani > Ashiok all day.
January 15, 2015 10:59 a.m.
@JexInfinite: "Idiots" is too strong a word. But I think one of the reasons to play U/W/x in the first place is Sphinx's Revelation. Even doing it for three is like you countered a Lava Spike and drew three cards. Anything higher than three and you're casting Riot Control with "draw a shit load of cards."
Dig Through Time has its merits. However, I'm not entirely convinced it's worth cutting down on Snapcaster Mages. Eight mana is also a lot. In order to cast it before turn four, you have to crack several fetch lands and play a spell each turn. Sometimes, that just doesn't happen if you open up with Celestial Colonnade. By the time you can actually cast it and played the cards you got from it, you could have Sphinx's Revelation for more than 2.
January 15, 2015 2:10 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #35
I am never cutting down on Snapcaster Mage as long as DRS is banned. Dig can get really clunky and hard to cast when you have multiples. Unlike Scapeshift, we're not looking for a specific card, we're just looking for random crap to do, so running a lot of Digs can create issues.
January 15, 2015 2:49 p.m.
@JexInfinite: Yeah that's been pretty much my experience with it. Snapcaster Mage is one of the most degenerate cards in the format. It's too good not to play four. Fuck, I'd play eight if they let me.
Most of the time, yeah, you're just looking for removal and lands. Very rarely do I find myself needing specific cards, especially in game one. Often I'm just looking for my next land drop, a Counterspell, and Path to Exile/Lightning Bolt/Lightning Helix. I think if you're playing Kiki Control, Dig Through Time becomes exponentially better.
January 15, 2015 3:47 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #37
sylvannos Kiki control is too slow for this format, even Wall of Omens to an extent.
January 15, 2015 4:06 p.m.
@JexInfinite: That and Forked Bolt is seeing more play on top of Lightning Bolt. Probably why people haven't playing Splinter Twin as much.
January 15, 2015 5:08 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #39
Splinter Twin is still an very viable deck, But all the Twin players in meta have been playing Delver.
January 15, 2015 8:54 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #40
I imagine Twin isn't seeing play because two of its worse matchups are the best decks in the format. Pod is generally bad for the Twin deck, as they have access to solid disruption (especially Abrupt Decay), and you really can't win via damage. Delver also has counterspells and disruption in addition to a clock that is pretty hard to stop with your 5-7 removal spells.
Come on people, just play Scapeshift. You won't lose matches.
January 15, 2015 9:35 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #41
I agree Scapeshift is an exceptional deck, However its results at GP Omaha are concerning.
Are you talking about Delver and Scape shift? Or Delver and Pod?
January 16, 2015 12:28 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #43
Delver seemed close for me. I cut my Pesters in favour of Volcanic Fallout.
Pod I dont hate that much like Abrupt Decay is anmoying but I feel favored in that matchup.
January 16, 2015 9:29 a.m.
nutellaisgreaterthanlife says... #44
Ok if any of you actually want to help build some grixis, Please please e-mail me at [email protected] and we can start building
January 17, 2015 5:57 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #45
Or, you know, you could use the deck builder offered by the glorious TappedOut.net
If you do choose to use that site, count me in. Email seems bad.
January 17, 2015 6:11 p.m.
Would it be mental to try Jund control?
You can react to all permanent types.
You can 1-for-1 very efficiently.
You have access to the best sweepers.
You just can't stop things from hitting the board.
Black and red together gives you a high saturation of sweepers, therefore making aggro matchups easier.
However the lack of counterspells wouuld make cheaty matchups like tron worse.
January 18, 2015 6:35 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #48
Tron is already a horrible matchup, so I don't think making it worse is a problem.
The issue with Jund or Mardu control is that you don't have a form of real card advantage that is playable currently. Dark Confidant deals you too much damage, Prophetic Flamespeaker isn't too good (but can certainly be tested), and Courser of Kruphix is actually great but doesn't draw you spells when you need them.
January 18, 2015 8:11 a.m.
Yeh. I see that being the problem.
I would have though that jeskai control or grixis control would be great against tron because they only play like 8 threats so you barely need to counter much at all.
January 18, 2015 8:15 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #50
Tron is actually among the worst matchups for any control deck. You need to race to burn them out most of the time, because otherwise they will find Eye of Ugin --> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and rip you apart. Tron has the most inevitability of any deck in the format.
TheDuggernaught says... #2
American. And I don't think it is really even close.
January 13, 2015 11:02 p.m.