How often to cards get unbanned in modern?
Modern forum
Posted on Aug. 14, 2013, 7:27 p.m. by ExpectDragons
Only been playing since RTR so having been through much banning updates so just wondering how often cards get unbanned in modern? Cards don't always hold the same power level as they did when they were banned especially as more answers enter the format. How many cards have been unbanned thus far?
One i'd like to see unbanned - wild necatl, just doesn't seem warranted given the amount of removal we all have access to
Epochalyptik says... #3
If I ever become inactive for more than two weeks, assume I'm dead and sacrifice Goat tokens in my name.
August 14, 2013 8:11 p.m.
smash10101 says... #5
@Epochalyptik: I think you posted that in the wrong thread, you want this one.
August 14, 2013 8:43 p.m.
You mean we aren't already supposed to sacrifice goat tokens in your name Epochalyptik?
Ah well, guess Springjack Pasture goes back in the binder for now...
August 14, 2013 8:49 p.m.
If they un ban anything its once a year Around the time of rotation. With that being said they could un ban Wild Nacatl and make the format more diverse. It's already a format that shifts weekly so adding him wouldn't mess with it that much at first.
August 14, 2013 9:04 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #8
There's not a single person on the planet who likes playing against that card it's like a double Kird Ape or Loam Lion .
August 14, 2013 9:09 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #9
I guess what I'm saying is that unbanning it unbalances the decks that it's usually found in. 1 cmc for a likely 3/3 with dual lands being prevalent is ridiculously off balance considering it can be a 2/2 turn one, and a 3/3 turn two. Hilarious. Especially if you follow with Kird Ape
s and Loam Lion
s and you're sitting on lethal turn 4 easy peasy.
August 14, 2013 9:25 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
Well, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle is the only card I can remember being unbanned in Modern. That was back in September '12.
Wild Nacatl was banned because a 3/3 for G is too good in the format. WOTC wants Modern to be a turn 4+ format with few earlier wins, and Wild Nacatl works against that goal.
August 14, 2013 9:32 p.m.
There's so many 1 cost removal though I don't think it's an issue. However take what I say with a grain of salt, I havn't been in the modern scene for a long time but I think a large part of the banlist is unneeded.
August 14, 2013 9:35 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
The "dies to removal" argument is a smokescreen. The problem with Wild Nacatl is that it's a 3/3 for G; it can come down on turn one and be ready on turn two. The issue with removal is that it's almost wasted on Wild Nacatl , yet Wild Nacatl can win games if unanswered. On top of that, the removal spell has to be cast basically immediately because the game will likely end inside of four or five turns otherwise.
August 14, 2013 9:38 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #15
To clarify: my previous comment was in response to DaggerV. Epochalyptik said basically what I wanted to say, but more eloquently. Well said.
August 14, 2013 9:41 p.m.
I know one power makes a world of differences, but kird is behind by one power. Then there is the slew of two drops, one of which is more expensive than a good number of legacy staples. It's a big part of the tempo I think, but again, newbie that plays control heavy decks.
August 14, 2013 9:50 p.m.
Whacker_Slacker_2 says... #17
Un-ban Jace, the Mind Sculptor , and I'd be betting my $20 that everybody will quit Modern.
August 14, 2013 11:38 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #18
Modern has seen a ton of goofy bannings, IMHO. I can understand trying to make the format more 'diverse' and fair, to an extent, however Bloodbraid Elf
, Ponder
, and Green Sun's Zenith
still have me vexed being on the list. I can definitely see why Punishing Fire
, Sensei's Divining Top
, Jace, the Mindsculptor, and Wild Nacatl
are banned.
August 15, 2013 5:06 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #19
Bloodbraid Elf was banned in an attempt to lighten Jund's grip on the meta, but it did little to actually accomplish that goal. Jund is just a pile of good, advantage-generating cards. Many decks simply put Huntmaster of the Fells Flip in Bloodbraid Elf 's former spot.
Ponder and Preordain were banned because they made combo decks way too consistent; as 1 CMC cantrips that allow you to rearrange your topdeck, they just do too much for decks like UR Pyromancer and UR Storm. WOTC wanted to move away from a fast, combo-oriented format. Unfortunately, the bans also made control suffer a lot as an archetype; control is rare in Modern because of the prevalence of tempo-based aggro decks.
Green Sun's Zenith was banned because it made green-based aggro and tempo decks way too powerful in the early game. It allowed for turn-one ramp and board position with Dryad Arbor and did some powerful things with Noble Hierarch , Tarmogoyf , Glistener Elf , and the like. WOTC banned it to lessen the prevalence of fast aggro decks.
Ultimately, WOTC wants Modern to be a format with few to no turn-four wins. Their current stance is that games that end inside of four turns don't allow players to experience the depth of the format, and they place too high an emphasis on high-speed aggro and combo decks.
August 15, 2013 5:15 a.m.
Epochalyptik I would have to comment on that stuff.
The banning of BBE massively hurt Jund because they could no longer generate such insane CA. With bloodbraid elf gone, the typical jund decks of the former format have changed a lot. They've I've had to go a lot higher, with Thundermaw Hellkite or a Ajani Jund, or lower, with the top of their curve being the sometimes Thrun/Olivia in the sideboard. Huntsmaster is good but it is a different league to BBE.
Control is still strong as ever. Look at the top 16 of worlds. 7 UWR Control decks. I will agree though, bannning the stuff that made combo consistent also hurt control badly and they have only just started to recover.
GSZ I can't comment on but I think it would be a pretty safe unban now. As I understood, it was banned the same time as Cloudpost because you could GSZ for Prime Time, drop him, fetch out 2 more cloud posts or glimmer posts, regain any life lost, still be able to generate a lot of mana and make even more insane plays.
But yeah. Cards get unbanned when a new standard set is released, and then if the meta can withstand it.
Right now, I think the only card that could see an unban is Bitterblossom. Abrupt Decay and other cards make it weaker and it has more answers, while still being powerful
August 15, 2013 5:34 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #21
Well, unbanning GSZ would certainly help PrimeTime-based Scapeshift decks because they would also have an easier way to find Lotus Cobra . I think Tron is kind of taking Cloudpost's place and keeping GSZ off the map for a while longer, but that's just a guess on my part.
BBE's ban did interesting things. However, Jund is still just a goodstuff deck, which is to say it's a pile of advantage generators. It's hard to really combat something like that using only the occasional ban. BBE was key because it cascaded into basically anything, but the ban didn't really knock Jund out of its dominant spot. It's still extremely popular, although there are lots of other decks being played. I do acquiesce that Jund needed to get a bit more creative in the ban's wake, though.
My assessment of control probably would have been more accurate a while ago, because control was, as I understand things, struggling during Modern's beginnings. I liken it to Standard following the enormous uptick of tempo decks: control was kind of a dark horse for a long time and only recently began to come into the spotlight in a major way. Most people were more content to play Jund or Naya in the first year instead of fiddle with control shells and design around the challenges. As WOTC gradually modified the format through the ban list and as players began to experiment outside of the typical tempo/aggro archetypes, control began to develop openings in the meta.
Granted, I don't yet play Modern, so my understanding of it comes largely from following bits and pieces online and talking once in a while to the Modern players at the LGS. Dedicated Modern players will certainly be more of an authority than I.
August 15, 2013 5:56 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #22
Vengevine
and Huntmaster of the Fells
Flip
are decent replacements for BBE, perhaps Falkenrath Aristocrat
.
Yeah, nobody likes a turn 2 win Storm deck unless you're the one piloting it haha! Also why Sensei's Divining Top was banned, a Ponder in any deck... There have been some control decks, but I agree without key elements, it's difficult to run.
But no GSZ means no viable Wolf Run in Modern. Sad face. Casting Green Sun's Zenith for zero fetching Dryad Arbor is fun, though! Til it gets the Lightning Bolt . It's all fun and games until someone gets the Lightning Bolt .
I suppose it makes sense, to a degree. It seems the ban hammer comes down when the Top 8 deck lists are consistently made up of the same decks/card lists. Do people ever get bored of playing the same decks? And the mirror? Lol
There are some Standard decks that can win turn 4 with a nut draw! Ugh. Most Aggro decks don't do well after turn 6, unless its more Midrange. I did note that Mindbreak Trap rose in price due to turn 2-3 Storm wins...
Other than Abrupt Decay , most decks don't run main board Enchantment hate. Well, Qasali Pridemage too... But in any case Bitterblossom has burohken written in the flavor text. Not really, but you know.
August 15, 2013 5:58 a.m.
There are other cards too. Basically, there are now a lot more answers to the card. The tokens it makes are nice but it is nowhere near as powerful as it was.
August 15, 2013 6:37 a.m.
Also Epochalyptik I've not seen any Scapeshift build running Lotus Cobra . Primeval Titan maybe, but I don't see a point in Lotus cobra, cause you don't need the explosive mana. If you could show me a build I would be interested.
August 15, 2013 7:12 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #25
One of my buddies was testing the idea out, but it now sounds like it was a bit of a rogue build. Again, my Modern experience is basically limited to my LGS and an assortment of online articles and decklists.
August 15, 2013 8:29 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #26
Prime Time is too good to not be in a Scapeshift deck in my opinion. Lotus Cobra not so much because it doesn't actually fetch you a land you can use to sac. It's a nice card, just not in Scapeshift, where we use the horribly underpowered Sakura-Tribe Elder for mana fixing instead.
August 15, 2013 9:22 a.m.
I'll put the summary up front so you can just skip the rest if you aren't interested in details.
TL;DR: Wizards has done a masterful job with the bans, as much as I hated 75% of them when they happened. The metagame is amazingly healthy right now. Look for Ancestral Vision to get unbanned in September.
After a lot of time spent complaining about bannings (both the preemptive ones and the others that have come about since), I have to begrudgingly admit now that Wizards has gotten everything right. The metagame is incredibly strong right now. There's no dominant deck, yet probably 15 or more decks are reasonably playable in a tournament setting. Modern is extremely healthy right now.
Yes, there's a lack of control. It's unfortunate that in order to contain combo, Wizards had to get rid of so much blue card advantage. I do think that it's now reasonable to unban Ancestral Vision . That card isn't going to help combo, and control should be built to live long enough to benefit. As long as Shardless Agent isn't printed in a Modern-legal set, at least. Given the timing of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle 's unbanning and its success (creating another combo deck, but not a dominating one), I'd expect another one this September, and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Vision be it.
Aggro is basically only Affinity, but I don't think that's a problem because there are a lot of other decks that win by attacking with small creatures. Melira Pod and GW Hatebears come to mind, and even Bogle decks (as much as I hate them) fit there too. All three of these do more than "play creatures, turn them sideways" to win though, and that's good. Some do have bigger flyers that push them towards midrange, but I don't really know that there's a tremendous need for some arbitrarily-termed "aggro deck" when you have those, along with the Delver decks and RB Burn decks that run in the same kind of space.
Even combo is in good shape, because there isn't a goldfish deck. No one (players or opponents alike) enjoyed Eggs and it needed to go, so they got rid of it. Storm wasn't that powerful and was a good entry point for new players on a budget, and I was afraid they killed it, but they really didn't. Now it still doesn't interact, but it allows its opponent to interact with it since it basically has to play creatures and enchantments now (and use the graveyard, which is easy to interact with in Modern). The rest of the combo decks - Scapeshift, Twin, Pod, Tron (at least the combo variations) - all have to play Magic. In my opinion, this is the best combo has been in any format, and it's because they banned a small number of cards that put it right in the proper place.
Epochalyptik says... #2
Moved to Modern forum.
August 14, 2013 7:51 p.m.