How to give control a boost
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 11, 2016, 3:06 a.m. by EvenDryke
After the announcement of the twin ban a lot of players were speculating that one of WOTC's motivations could be a desire to print/unban some goodies that will give control the boost it needs to really be a thing in modern.
The question I want to pose is this - if that is WOTC's plan now that twin is gone, what would be the best spells to reprint or unban in order to achieve this goal? Or if you're feeling ambitions - what kind of new spells are now safe to print in a modern legal set?
Before posting please note the following:
There are already plenty of threads debating whether the twin ban was a good move or not. That is not the purpose of this thread.
There are already plenty of threads debating WOTC's real reasoning behind the twin ban. We are assuming to know their intentions purely for the sake of discussion, any debate over the truth of that assumption is also irrelevant to this thread.
When I say control I am referring to traditional draw-go control.
Tl;dr - If WOTC was to introduce/reintroduce something into Modern to make draw-go control more playable, what would it be?
Inb4 unban Jace & Visons. /Kappa
In reality though, for draw-go to be a thing in this current meta, it would basically need to have Force of Will and Brainstorm printed in modern. Even then, it would probably have a hard time. And since they're not on the reserve list, it COULD technically happen, but hell no it won't happen.
Draw-go likely won't be allowed to happen simply because of how fast modern has become. Counterspells just can't outrace the sheer possibility of 20 power on turn 3, or Thought-Knot Seer ripping your hand apart with the amount of ways it can be played on T2.
February 11, 2016 3:16 a.m.
JexInfinite - "Draw-go control hasn't been a thing in modern for years." I know, that's the point. With some number of people holding the belief that WOTC is trying to make draw-go control a thing in modern, I am curious to see what people think needs to happen for that to become a reality.
You mentioned Counterspell which I think is a good example of a card that can at least be considered for a modern printing. There are people who are afraid that would lead to 4 Counterspell + 4 Mana Leak + 4 Snapcaster Mage absolutely dominating the format simply by countering everything your opponent is trying to do. On the other hand with the format continuing to speed up even this might not be enough to keep pace with the aggro decks. Especially when playing on the draw. Thoughts?
February 11, 2016 3:36 a.m.
Maybe the deck does exist and we just haven't witnessed people truly trying to adapt it, or we're just blind to it by being jaded around linear decks, combo or otherwise.
Or maybe it'd take something like a more open (target spell, instead of noncreature) Commandeer to be a psudeo Force of Will, and if THAT distorts Legacy they can just ban said new Commandeer.
Right now for the next couple weeks we are under Duress from our Eldrazi Menace overlords. So maybe we just can't properly assess it until it settles and that becomes the main deck, or it gets banned and the meta that started forming after Twin's ban settles... which would take longer.
One of the "problems" is that many decks are linear decks with a strict goal. Introducing something to deal with or quell those decks usually just changes the entire format to more control-style decks. Grabbing a balance between the two IS difficult, but probably tangible.
February 11, 2016 4:01 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #6
How the bloody hell would Counterspell dominate the format? It doesn't do anything. It stops people from doing things, in a non-oppressive way. It is a 1-for-1 card which doesn't advance board state. By definition, it cannot be oppressive.
February 11, 2016 5:21 a.m.
I didn't say it would dominate. I personally think it would be a safe addition to Modern. What I said was "There are people who are afraid that would lead to 4 Counterspell + 4 Mana Leak + 4 Snapcaster Mage absolutely dominating the format simply by countering everything your opponent is trying to do" because I have heard that argument brought up on several occasions. Then I went on to give another side of the argument.
If we want to get anywhere in this discussion we have to understand the arguments for and against each card that could be brought into the format. It doesn't matter if we agree with them or not.
February 11, 2016 5:47 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #8
If the arguments are not well thought out, I think it's safe to discount them.
February 11, 2016 5:57 a.m.
I don't think Counterspell would dominate the format, but it would have an immediate and dramatic impact, and whether or not it's "safe" in design aspects is unknown.
If Wotc does anything else like what the Eldrazi decks have done, it'll be for marketing, and not for the healthiness of the game. But something more like Counterspell is inevitable, or at the very very very least something that is at Counterspell cost like:
Modern is Getting Borked - UU - Instant - Counter target creature, instant, or sorcery spell.
This would introduce a playable counterspell and allow Wotc to be able to sell a new card in a set.
(This is all mostly devil's advocate).
February 11, 2016 6:09 a.m.
JexInfinite - At this point we're debating philosophy, and as much as I enjoy that topic it's pretty far off the original purpose of this thread.
The last thing I'll say on the subject is this - I posted this thread because I'm interested in being exposed to and evaluating other people's ideas on the topic. I can't tell you what to do by virtue of being the OP, but I will ask you to please be respectful and constructive.
Dorotheus - I think a spell very similar to what you came up with is the closest we'll come to getting Counterspell itself judging by WOTC's hesitation to reprint it in a modern legal set. But that raises another aspect of the discussion - WOTC will often not reprint things that would be fine in modern if they think it would be too powerful for standard. Do you think that twin was the main factor stopping WOTC from reprinting Counterspell, or do you think they just didn't want it in standard? Or perhaps it was a bit of both.
February 11, 2016 6:35 a.m.
What about a Daze reprint. It would be just the right amount of power blue needs. You do need an island, so there cant be decks running around with Phyrexian Metamorph and the like in kiki chord. also, it is useful even if u dont use the island thing. second turn, eldrazi has 0 extra mana to play a thought-knot seer.
February 11, 2016 6:47 a.m.
In all my experiences playing with or against Daze I have found it to be a pretty well balanced card. It has the unpredictability aspect that helps keep other degenerate strategies in check as well as keeping pretty much any opponent on their toes. At the same time if you know to expect it you can play around it with relative ease, so I wouldn't call it broken by any stretch.
Then again I only play it in pauper delver which is aggressive enough to make the tempo loss negligible. I'm not sure if I would want it in a slower paced control deck.
February 11, 2016 7:01 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #14
For unbans, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek. Card draw that takes tons of time and a way to slowly gain life and board presence would make draw go more potent.
As for reprints, i'm entirely in the camp of Counterspell and Fact or Fiction. Instant speed card drawing that acts like a more controlling Gifts Ungiven and a hard counter would make control viable without dominating too much
February 11, 2016 8:08 a.m.
I'm not entirely sure about counterspell. It can probably be seen in modern but I am concerned about handing control a spell that's relevant on t2 and relevant on t20. That's a huge thing. Removal spells and counterspells shouldn't be totally unconditional unless they cost a lot of mana.
But that's just my opinion and I have no idea what would really happen if counterspell was around.
February 11, 2016 9:13 a.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #16
Modern Draw Go needs basically 2 things:
It needs Counterspell, because it's bad against 1-mana threats, even against 2-mana threats, and good against 3+, giving it an overall balance since 1- and 2-mana threats are most prevalent.
It also needs 2 mana black instant that reads "Destroy target creature." Basically for the same reasons as Counterspell -- it trades evenly or unfavorably with most of the format, but is balanced out by the 3+ mana spells that decks do play.
February 11, 2016 9:21 a.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #17
Edit: Control probably doesn't need both, but I guess either/or works fine. Obviously it'd be great with both though.
February 11, 2016 9:33 a.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #18
Huh, even something like this would be neat:
Countersquabble UU
Instant
Countersquabble costs 
more to cast if it targets a spell with a converted mana cost of 3 or greater.
Counter target spell.
February 11, 2016 9:40 a.m.
What if there was just a spell that cost X to counter a spell with X mana cost.
You'd be able to cast it at all points of the game against relevant threats but you'd never develop huge tempo.
It would be like the most average but well rounded counterspell in modern.
February 11, 2016 10:31 a.m.
ChiefBellIsn't Spell Burst exactly what you described? I think it's a nice counterspell, but it works little, since a lot of spells on the format are "cheated" into play. Karn costs 3 mana for Tron, and you'd probably need to use 8 lands, unless you're playing U Tron. Tasigur costs one mana to his caster, but would cost 7 for you. Rift Bolt costs 1 mana for the Burn player, but you'd need to counter it for 3. Not only that, but the fact that the game is so fast, that needing to pay one more mana to answer one threat hardly will be enough.
I actually miss more card advantage tools for Control on Modern. Aggro and Midrange decks have a lot of those, but Control still relys almost totally on Cryptic Command and Snapcaster Mage. Voice of Resurgence costs 2 mana and gives CA unless you spend a Path on it. Kitchen Finks does the same for 3 and gives 2 life. CoCo is CA on instant speed for 4 mana. Lingering Souls provides 4 bodys on one card. Spectral Procession 3 for 1. Blade Splicer, Ranger of Eos, Huntmaster of the Fells, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Tasigur, Dark Confidant, Young Pyromancer... even Abbot of Keral Keep. All powerful Aggro and Midrange stuff. And Draw Go Control is still stuck on Cryptic and Snappy.
Electrolyze can be CA, but on very restricted occasions. Kolaghan's Command is powerful on CA but only if you're playing on a heavy creature strategy or against artifacts. Supreme Verdict is nice but oftenly too slow and dead against some decks. Aside from that, Draw Go needs to struggle to achieve turn 6~8 and try to resolve a Sphinx's Revelation for >3 and then try to win the game from there, while your opponent simply plays Kitchen Finks, CoCo and some Lingering Souls for 3~4 mana keeps you behind all over the game.
Surely, Counterspell would be a good spell as well.
February 11, 2016 10:51 a.m.
No burst costs U and X. My idea is if it just cost X. Is a shame that they can't specify how X must be paid. So they can't say X mana total but one of them must be blue.
I guess it would be written:
Counterspell
Counter target spell where X is that spells converted mana cost minus one.
February 11, 2016 11:19 a.m.
TheAlexGnanSeems very good. Sorcery speed hurts it though. I think it's worth testing and might be a good tool for Draw Go Control.
February 11, 2016 12:11 p.m.
mymanpotsandpans says... #23
ChiefBell you could give it text similar to Patagia Viper.
Counter spell X
Cost: X
Counter target spell with converted mana cost x or less.
Before Counter Spell X resolves If UU was not spent to cast it then exile it.
February 11, 2016 12:15 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #24
Invasive Surgery and Pieces of the Puzzle look they'll be giving control a boost.
I feel Blue simply needs more Cantrips. Remand Repeal and Inaction Injunction are nice but a few more 2 mana or less cards would be nice. Cryptic Command can be too slow at times.
February 11, 2016 12:17 p.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #26
I think Sword of the Meek is a safe unban. It fills the splinter twin role, plus there are no cards with the same effect as foundry and sword.
February 11, 2016 3 p.m.
mymanpotsandpans says... #27
Sword of the Meek needs unbanned, I want to run a lantern control base with the combo. Disrupt and swarm your way to victory.
February 11, 2016 3:48 p.m.
Sceadugenga says... #28
In terms of U based control options, I think Force Spike would go a long way towards helping the format out. Being able to safely counter spells with Spike and Mana Leak would probably do a lot for the format overall. It is worth noting that Modern has white force spike in Mana Tithe, but not being blue actually does a lot to hurt the card's playability in control decks. I think as far as unbannings go that we should get Ancestral Vision ASAP. It'll do a world of good against aggro eldrazi decks that don't run processors. And if Eldrazi is forced to run processors to combat Vision, then it's aggro card pool is significantly diluted (by 6-8 cards depending on how many Scrabbling Claws it runs), which will likely transform the deck into a midrange and therefore tolerable archetype.
I'd be totally OK with unbanning JTMS. Or getting sorcery-speed Brainstorm. Or both. But I think Brainstorm as a sorcery wouldn't do anything to push U over the edge. Might even help make Miracles a deck in Modern, which would be pretty cool.
JexInfinite says... #2
Draw-go control hasn't been a thing in modern for years. The last true draw-go deck was Esper, which hasn't been played since before PTBNG.
I'll assume you're referring to something like Jeskai. Jeskai is positioned well, but control in general needs Counterspell. Fact or Fiction would be pretty good, and Force of Will would be great so blue decks could police the format.
February 11, 2016 3:15 a.m.