Interaction of Persist with +1/+1 counters
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 25, 2014, 6:29 p.m. by Mauvai
I have read that +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters cancel each other out... In what sense do they cancel each other out? Are they actually gone? If i have a creature with persist, with a -1/-1 counter, and i somehow give it a +1/+1 counter, will it return again with a -1/-1 counter when it dies?
TurboFagoot says... #3
To answer your question, yes. If your Persist creature has a -1 counter, then receives a +1 counter, then dies, it will Persist back into play with one -1 counter.
February 25, 2014 6:35 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #4
The ruling on +1 and -1 counters:
"If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it"
I take this to believe that is you put a +1 counter on something that already has a -1 counter on it, you are effectively removing the -1 counter, which means that persist triggers again.
February 25, 2014 7:07 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #6
No, they do not cancel each other out. A dude tried to do that with a Kitchen Finks
after I cast Terminate
. When the finks came back, he activated a Gavony Township
to do the whole "negate the counter" thing to profit off of a block from my dudes. Judge was there and said that shit don't fly. He said the -1/-1 counter is still on the creature as well as a +1/+1 counter. If it dies from the block, it dies forever because it already has a -1/-1 counter on it.
Mathematically speaking? Yes, the negate each other. Magic speak? No.
February 25, 2014 9:24 p.m.
@gnarlicide The judge was wrong
704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
February 25, 2014 9:32 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #8
raithe000, yeah but what if there is the same amount of counters on it? I have been hearing this come up quite a bit in several states across the US. In Texas, I was playing during DKA and some guy blocked an infect creature with his Geralf's Messenger which also had a +1/+1 on it. They never negated, the messenger just died.
I am not being confrontational here, I am just trying to make sure that the several judges in my examples are incorrect before I start arguing at a shop. Since those are the situations I come across a lot.
February 25, 2014 10:01 p.m.
If there are the same number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters, then all of them are removed, since the numbers are equal.
Here is a bullet point on undying that appears in the Dark Ascension FAQ. I believe it explains why Geralf's Messenger died and did not come back. The more complete answer has to do with State-Based Actions, which I can explain if you want.
- If a creature with undying that has a +1/+1 counter on it receives enough -1/-1 counters to cause it to be destroyed by lethal damage or put into its owner's graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, undying won't trigger and the card won't return to the battlefield. That's because undying checks the creature's existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point.
And no worries, I didn't think you were being confrontational. It's worth understanding why the rules work the way they do, instead of just parroting back the words.
February 25, 2014 10:18 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #10
So it seems that judges are using the DKA rules on undying for persist? Why doesn'tpersist check the state before it goes? This got a lot more confusing.
February 25, 2014 10:50 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
That's not a DKA rule. It's an actual rule. The DKA FAQ just restated it.
Basically, creatures are put into their owner's graveyards as a state-based action, and opposite counters are removed as a state-based action. SBAs are all performed at the same time, so at the time the creature dies, its last-known information will indicate that it still had both counters on it.
vampirelazarus says... #2
They go away. Both of them.
February 25, 2014 6:30 p.m.