Is it just me - or is White terrible in Modern?
Modern forum
Posted on Jan. 11, 2016, 7:01 p.m. by Wizard_of_the_Broke
I've never been much a White player, but it seems to me it's the weakest color in the format - and by a distance.
Path to Exile might be one of the most-played cards in the format - but that's pretty much it. Of the top 50 spells used in Modern, not a single other non-sideboard card is really mono-white. Of the top 50 creatures, only Kor Firewalker is mono-white, and that's a sideboard card if there ever was one. Sure, Kitchen Finks and Lingering Souls are great, but they are really only playable in specific color combinations.
I'd like to see White get some generally decent creatures. The other colors all have solid card-advantage creatures like Abbot of Keral Keep, Dark Confidant, Snapcaster Mage, and Eternal Witness. They all have cheap beaters like Delver of Secrets Flip, Monastery Swiftspear, Tarmogoyf, and Tasigur, the Golden Fang. And white has what? Auriok Champion? Knight of Meadowgrain?
And now that the black Eldrazi deck is out there, everyone but white has a decent mono-colored(ish) deck (Burn, Merfolk, and Elves are all at least decent). Okay, the Eldrazi deck is only sort of black, but there's still 8-Rack, which is still better than Soul Sisters (no offense, SS players), but probably unpopular because if you're gonna buy 4X Lili, you might as well build a better deck around her.
So the reason I bring this up is because OGW seems universally accepted as a pretty good set. But White still got squat. Sure, Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim and Reflector Mage might turn out to be pretty good, but like Souls and Finks, they're not playable in every deck running white.
So are we just underestimating Monastery Mentor or other cards that have only seen limited play? Or is White really just bad?
PS- I'm all for criticizing WotC when it's due, but I'm not accusing them of some intentional bias here. I'm just wondering if people agree with this assessment, have any theory as to what the deal with this is, or have any ideas about how it might get fixed (short of unbanning Stoneforge Mystic). I also just think it's an odd situation and might bring about an interesting discussion.
As a Mono-White player I find that the only option is Control. White weenie aggro is still around, but it just can't compete vs Tron/Twin/Esper.
You're totally right about Grand Abolisher seeing more play. If he's not in a D&Ts deck you'll usually see him as a stall method to buff up Champion of the Parish for that big turn 3 swing.
I for one love the "Grand Hatebear" because keeping my opponent locked out on my turn is just so nice... hahah!
Also Kor Firewalker protects Soulsisters for only so long..eventually everything gets halted unless you play Thalia, but in that case you immediately stall yourself.
January 11, 2016 7:13 p.m. Edited.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #4
I totally agree about Abolisher being underrated. He could be really good against the new UR Prowess deck with AEther Vial, for instance. But even if you were to mainboard him, there would be times when he needs to get sidelined.
January 11, 2016 7:17 p.m. Edited.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #5
The thing about hatebear-type cards is it's impossible to consistently get the right one out at the right time. Same with a lot of good white enchantments.
Some kind of cheaper Ranger of Eos that let you grab a 2-CMC guy would be awesome. That, and/or some kind of Idyllic Tutor on a 1/3 body could do.
January 11, 2016 7:23 p.m.
TheFoilAjani says... #7
I would agree with that assesment as a whole, but looking at magiccards.info I see these non-sideboard creatures;
January 11, 2016 7:40 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #8
White makes up for it with great sideboard cards.
January 11, 2016 7:45 p.m.
TheFoilAjani says... #9
I also agree with GlistenerAgent. Main deck it's a bit tough, but sideboards are great.
January 11, 2016 7:55 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #10
TheFoilAjani - That's a good list. But most of those dudes have a high CMC or are only conditionally good. I'll grant that Brimaz, Anafenza, Mentor, and Restoration Angel (maybe others) are decent value with not-hard-to-meet conditions, but that's still kind of meh, no? Anafenza is the only (basically) unconditionally good 2-drop on there, and she costs 2 colored mana and is far from amazing.
Does no one think there's plenty of room for better cheap white creatures? Maybe at least something with a card advantage aspect?
GlistenerAgent - Yeah, the sideboard options are killer, no question. But it would be cool to see better white creatures that interact with those enchantments and hatebear dudes, if not by straight tutoring but maybe a Satyr Wayfinder-type effect.
January 11, 2016 8:04 p.m.
You are forgetting soul sisters and the power enchantments used in bogles. Plus Mentor of the Meek is good card advantage (tho this is considered a bend by Maro)
January 11, 2016 8:04 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #12
Like:
BlahBlah Enchantress 
Creature- Cleric or whatever 1/3
When BlahBlah enters the battlefield, you may look at the top 5 cards of your library. You may put a creature or enchantment with converted mana cost no greater than 
into your hand. Put the rest into your graveyard.
January 11, 2016 8:08 p.m.
TheFoilAjani says... #13
Wizard_of_the_Broke A good amount of them are 1-2 drops. I think it's just that most good white creatures are 3-4 drops.
January 11, 2016 8:09 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #14
Mono White has a strategy, it is called Soul Sisters or Martyr Proc depending on how it is built. Also Knights is a somewhat viable deck that can operate being mono white.
I do agree that white has the weakest mainboard cards. However, white also has the best sideboard cards. Rest in Peace, Leyline of Sanctity, Rule of Law, Stony Silence, Suppression Field, Kor Firewalker, etc. The power you can bring from the sideboard is great.
January 11, 2016 8:12 p.m.
i have to agree. also, all the sisters are mono white. so is a ton of sb
January 11, 2016 8:13 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #16
Guys (and Gals?) - I appreciate people posting. But I mention Soul Sisters and sideboard cards in the original post. I'm not saying White is useless, just lesser, and I think I provide some reasonable evidence of this in said post.
What I'm especially curious about is whether people are completely underrating main-boardable mono white creatures and cards, like Monastery Mentor. And I ask because mono cards other than Path just don't actually see mainboard action (demonstrably). Or- are we not underrating them? Is white is genuinely missing stuff that the other colors have access to? Is that a bad thing?
There seems to be a consensus that white is okay - and I don't necessarily disagree- but are any of you currently playing a good deck that mainboards a mono white card other than Path or a big angel maybe? That seems odd to me.
January 11, 2016 8:26 p.m.
TheFoilAjani says... #17
I personally don't play White, and when I do it'll be in B/W Pox.
January 11, 2016 8:34 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #18
The thing about white is that it's sort of the best all-around color (good removal, solid creatures, etc...) but unlike every other color, it doesn't have the best ___. That's why it's just best to assemble it with other colors to make up for that weakness.
January 11, 2016 8:55 p.m.
I thought we covered Soulsisters quite well in the beginning...but to continue Wizard's point about cards other than Path and a big angel--I say look at my deck, and you'll agree it's pretty much the "all-around" good color that Watermelon had mentioned as well.
A lot of my power will come from Sideboarding, but Mainboard I have almost every answer possible, apart from burn..which is so boring that I don't mind losing to it to be honest.
January 11, 2016 9:34 p.m. Edited.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #20
FAMOUSWATERMELON said it best. White is the best supporting color. But it just hasn't found its mainstay in modern yet. White is used in a plethora of decks as a support function: Jeskai Control, Jeskai Twin, Naya Company, Abzan Company, Abzan, Kiki Chord, etc... And the list goes on. But the only real deck that is probably Tier 1, if not, close to Tier 1, is the B/W Tokens deck that showcases a lot of white spells, and those spells are just generally good in a strategy with removal and disruption, in which White accommodates that strategy very well.
January 11, 2016 9:36 p.m.
It's not just you - is easily the weakest color in Modern. The only truly contending deck that even employs it is Abzan, though to be fair it's quite helpful there. There's been some speculation regarding what they need, but I'm pretty convinced it's card advantage (for midrange) and evasion (for aggro). Apart from protection effects, is woeful at evading blockers, and that ultimately dooms most of their attempts at aggression.
January 11, 2016 9:57 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #22
Oh, another deck that is primarily white is B/W Tokens. The black is mainly for discard to shore up your combo matchups and Bitterblossom/Sorin, Solemn Visitor for value. However, it runs almost exclusively white cards as win conditions. A B/W Tokens deck that was running black exclusively for discard, removal, and Bitterblossom took fifth place in the latest SCG Open
January 11, 2016 10:10 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #23
Watermelon makes a good point. White does fill in holes in a bunch of decks. But, half the time that means running Path in non-black decks, and of course, sideboard stuff.
And I love Tokens, but it's tier 2. And the only white spells in there that see play elsewhere are Path and Lingering Souls.
I don't know. I'm still thinking white could use a good utility creature or something. I'm not sure why anyone's resistant to the idea that it would be great to have more modern playable cards.
January 11, 2016 10:13 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #24
Grand Abolisher isn't played because the decks that would play it play Voice of Resurgence instead.
BoCaliv, I disagree. I run a secondary dominantly white deck. And have played it extensively against Tron & Twin. White is fully capable of handling those match ups. Esper I don't encounter very often.
My deck for reference Lifted Research Group
January 11, 2016 10:25 p.m.
Never thought about using Resurgence/Brimaz tokens for convoke cost when considering Devouring Light. A pseudo Path is a perfect option for Tron & Twin if you don't actually have the path or plowshares.
You're right. Sorry about that. Voice of Resurgence is on the high sigh, so seeing it in action or testing with it is rare around my area.
Esper might just be a regional favorite in my area I guess.
January 11, 2016 10:47 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #26
Thanks for the backup, rothgar13. I didn't think this was that crazy.
Okay APPLE01DOJ, that deck is interesting. Admittedly, I totally forgot about Kytheon. And Sunscour definitely falls into the category of overlooked cards.
January 11, 2016 10:49 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #27
Mono-white? Yeah, it's sort of weak. Relatively poor card advantage, and problematic removal outside Path to Exile. Mono-white Soul Sisters (Tier 2, life gain aggro deck) and mono-white hatebears (also Tier 2, but usually splashes green and is stronger for it; GW version is Tier 1.5) do exist in Modern and can play competitively, but their weaknesses are pretty stark when they go against Tier 1 decks. It's not that they can't win, but they have issues in most games that run long.
Recall though that white is a cornerstone of many strong decks like Abzan, Hatebears, BW tokens, and numerous other aggro decks. White offers many highly potent sideboard options, too.
So yes, on its own, it may well be the worst color in the format, but that doesn't mean there isn't value there. It's just that Weenies, one of white's main hallmarks, is really REALLY tough to win with in Modern due to the format's card pool, which is replete with efficient spot and mass removal as well as acceleration-based strategies like Tron that blow weenies out of the water. Weenies can be good in average-paced Standard environments and is almost always solid in Limited. The strategy, outside of specialized exceptions like Hatebears, Soul Sisters, and Death & Taxes, just lacks both the speed and resilience that a deck needs to win in a format like Modern, which is an efficiency-, speed-, and above all value-based format. Weenies are moderately good at those three categories but don't excel enough at any of them, typically, to reliably win in Modern.
Like I said before though, white offers solid sideboard and utility cards to many different strategies including aggro, midrange, and control. It's also the backbone of virtually every token strategy.
January 12, 2016 2:03 a.m.
No, is pretty weak in general. Only 4 decks rep it on the "named/good deck" stage (Abzan, Esper Gifts, Tokens, and Hatebears) and the latter 3 aren't even tiered at the moment (though Tokens really should be - people need to recognize that deck has potential). And you can forget about running mono-colored - trust me, I tried. Eldrazi is still sussing out what it wants to run apart from 
, and while is popular, there's no guarantees it'll come out on top. The sideboard options are cute, but you know what's better than a good sideboard? A good mainboard that gives you a chance at all comers on Games 1-3, as opposed to 2-3. I hope that Wizards starts giving it a bit more love, because it's in a bad place right now.
January 12, 2016 11:55 a.m. Edited.
JakeHarlow says... #29
Yeah, it's pretty true. I hope we get some sort of white cards that will boost the color's strength in Modern. It isn't even that great in Standard these days and hasn't been for some time. Maybe the new Innistrad set will give us some cool weenies.
January 12, 2016 1:42 p.m.
What about the White One-Drop Goyfs deck piloted by John Gniadek? He got 14th place with an aggro list at the SCG Premier IQ in Washington DC. The deck focuses on landing three one-drops on turn two and going from there. Over the past few months, his deck has been tweaked, but in its current state, it does pretty well against the Mono-Black Eldarazi lists popping up.
Here is the offical article on ModernNexus:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://modernnexus.com/modern-white-weenie-white-goyfs/&ved=0ahUKEwjigJmmhqbKAhUI9GMKHeoKD38QFgglMAE&usg=AFQjCNHJ6WjVcAlehWVCXJKYDChjYnZTTw&sig2=WE3_fqaka6d6WBpWClBYSQ
January 13, 2016 12:35 a.m.
Yes, it did well then, but it hasn't been seen since. That's the rare combination of the right meta, the right deck, and the right user for it. Don't expect that deck to have sustained success, because it's far too easy to hate into oblivion (can you say Pyroclasm?).
January 13, 2016 12:38 a.m.
JaceArveduin says... #32
I mean, he does run 4 brave the elements MB. Honestly, the deck looks interesting and I just might pick it up myself, with a few changes.
January 13, 2016 1:07 a.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #33
I don't love that deck because Student of Warfare and the other level-up guys just set up huge tempo swings for your opponent. You just spend a turn dumping mana into them so the other player gets even more value out of their Terminate or Path to Exile.
Brave the Elements kind of reminds me why I started this discussion though. That card is potentially amazing, I just don't know if there's a mono-white shell where it has an especially good home. A decent white Prowess creature would be good, for instance.
January 13, 2016 1:21 a.m.
What if they mixed Seeker of the Way with Fiendslayer Paladin?
First strike, Prowess with lifelink off the trigger, and keep the color hate only spells.
January 13, 2016 1:37 a.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #35
That's maybe pushing it - Paladin is pretty good - giving him Prowess would be bonkers. I'd like to see Seeker get a better white prowess buddy, though.
January 13, 2016 2:12 a.m.
Sadly, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Prowess creatures. That was explicitly stated to be a 
primary, secondary keyword when it was made evergreen.
January 13, 2016 2:18 a.m.
People like goodstuff decks.(As building them requires a lot less work, they are proven, and easyer to pilot, and understand)
Since white (and no other color) has the best creature for any 1 role, people mostly play multicolor decks.
January 14, 2016 2:57 p.m.
What's really strange about white is that it always has tons of spells that say "make that guys kill spell useless" yet it's impossible to build a mono "heroic" style deck.
On the other hand heroic is still entirely possible.
January 15, 2016 4:45 a.m.
white brings excellent sb and is a decent splash, just not deck-centric.
the worst color in modern is blue by a mile, a complete farce of what blue represents and can do in older formats.
January 15, 2016 6:13 a.m.
? The weakest color in Modern? It lays claim to one of the pillars of the format ( Twin), and it has one of the premier aggro decks as well (Merfolk, which along with Elves are the only true mono-colored decks in the whole format). It also fuels combo strategies (Infect, Knightfall, and Ad Nauseam), and it's almost a must if you want to build a tempo deck of any kind (though tempo is at a relative low point these days). Last but not least, now it has a midrange contender in Grixis. It's not as overpowering as it is other formats (where NOT running it is a surprise), but to say that it's the weakest color in the Modern format is misguided at best and outright silly at worst.
January 15, 2016 10:22 a.m. Edited.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #41
Yeah, just because Modern blue isn't Legacy blue does not make it the worst color. I'd love to see blue get a slightly better bag of tricks (stuff like Force Spike and Stifle), particularly for tempo decks, but that's just a personal opinion. I think the actual lists of played cards and decks demonstrate that white is lacking.
rothgar13 - Yeah, I'm not going to hold my breath for a white Prowess creature, but it would be nice to see.
January 15, 2016 2:34 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #42
@Wizard_of_the_Broke We already have Seeker of the Way and Monastery Mentor, so it wouldn't be a stretch to see some more white prowess creatures in the future. I think it's more likely that there will be a UW prowess creature that we can get.
January 15, 2016 3:09 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #43
A UW could be good, lemmingllama. I really want a 1-drop, though. I would even play:
Prowess Weenie
Creature- Bird? 0/1
Flying
Prowess
January 15, 2016 3:18 p.m.
I honestly feel like Mentor shouldn't be Mythic. I mean the guy is unbelievable, but I feel it hoses us in the end when it comes to another bomb prowess creature. It would either have to be Legendary or like Wizard suggests, a 0/1 prowess dork.
He's on the expensive side, and holds up the 3-drop Lord slot where I personally prefer an anthem type affect apposed to a token generator.
Sergal says... #2
I dont know why Grand Abolisher doesn't see much play. Even if he is on the board for a turn or 2, modern is a format full of instant speed removal, so it is sure to slow your opponent for a couple turns.
January 11, 2016 7:07 p.m.