Is it time please?
Modern forum
Posted on May 11, 2014, 3:07 p.m. by Putrefy
10 out of 24 decks in contention for Top8 at GP MIN are Pod-variants (round 13). Each other archetype has 3 or less decks. Is it time yet? Please Wizards... enough of this pod-nonsense...
Servo_Token says... #3
10 out of 24 is still less than half, and that's just the top 24 decks out of a tournament.
That isn't overwhelming enough to insta-ban it, and i'd just barely call it viable for consideration.
May 11, 2014 3:33 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #4
Just play Rest in Peace . That stops us nearly dead in our tracks.
Or Shadow of Doubt .
Or Aven Mindcensor .
Or anything that kills artifacts.
It's pretty easy to stop us.
May 11, 2014 3:33 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #6
Rest in Peace certainly shuts down the instant combo, but it by no means shuts down the deck. Pod is a midrange toolbox deck, not a combo deck. It just happens to contain a combo.
May 11, 2014 3:52 p.m.
If you ask me, I'd root for a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Deceiver Exarch ban. Hitting the two most unfair archetypes at once.
May 11, 2014 4:17 p.m.
Why Deceiver Exarch ? He's not inherently broken. They would have to knock out Pestermite with him, too.
May 11, 2014 4:43 p.m.
Pestermite is way easier to deal with than Deceiver Exarch !
May 11, 2014 4:49 p.m.
Right, but neither of them are what makes the card broken. Twin and Kiki themselves do. There's nothing broken about Deceiver Exarch + Twinflame , haha.
May 11, 2014 4:51 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #11
Wizards won't ban a T4 combo unless it becomes a degenerate percentage of the metagame. Twin is popular, but not popular enough to push every other deck out of the meta like Jund did months ago.
Pod is in the same position. It's clearly a deck to beat, but other brews have certainly shown success in the current format.
May 11, 2014 4:51 p.m.
In addition to the points already mentioned, pod is also an extremely interactive deck that is fun to play (in most people's opinions). That, and there is way more than one pod deck. I'm pretty sure that Lightning Bolt is in a far higher percentage of decks than pod, and that isn't banworthy either.
May 11, 2014 5:38 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #13
I don't get why people think that banning kiki will get rid of Pod. a greater portion of the top winning pod decks are melira, banning kiki just gets rid of tier two variants.
May 11, 2014 6:02 p.m.
And cfb has eliminated the combo and went tthe pure value route. Source... top 8 at gp min. Includes 4 u/r/x decks, 2 pods, 1 jund, and 1 scapeshift... all the u/w/r and scapeshift played Snapcaster Mage ... stop complaining about pod and realize it's not an issue. Look at twin variations and realize, that where the stalness is... said by a pod AND u/w/r player (control version).
Ban Island ...
May 11, 2014 6:23 p.m.
As others have pointed out - there are multiple pod variants, so it's misrepresentational to say 10 out of 24 is 'pod', in a general sense.
May 11, 2014 6:28 p.m.
What it really sounds like, 'people want to a play a deck different than what I want to play or play against, so please make my beliefs everyone elses and make me happy, regardless of what it meeans for the format. Only i know what is best... ' stop calling for bans and play the game. Maybe you might be one of those other 14.
May 11, 2014 6:38 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #17
I'm hearing "Pod always tutors an answer to my deck and I'd rather get mad than play around it."
Pod is great because it has answers to everything. But it usually only has one or two answers to any given deck. Don't play into those answers and you'll have a pretty even matchup.
May 11, 2014 6:45 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #18
Me: "Oh look, Pod/Twin matchup." sides in 3 Torpor Orb .
May 11, 2014 7:21 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #19
Or Stony Silence or Pithing Needle or Wear / Tear or Ancient Grudge or...
May 11, 2014 7:30 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #20
I think it just boils down to the fact that the meta just got shook up and things are still settling. Once the meta settles sideboard hate should help to stabilize.
May 11, 2014 7:43 p.m.
Ok here is something I think is relevant to this discussion and bans in general:
Must win 60% of the time is the line that needs to be considered. Forget the day 2 appearances, number of times in the top 8 (though indicative), forget the amount of people using it in the meta (again indicative), If a deck wins 60% of the time, wotc/dci is going to look at it seriously enough to consider banning. Note: We're looking for something like caw-blade in terms of wins. So it probably needs to be saturated in the meta with large numbers in terms of players playing it. Get these numbers together before you talk about banning a deck....
May 12, 2014 1:37 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #22
I'm curious then, was Jund winning 60% of the games when DTS was still legal?
May 12, 2014 3:37 p.m.
If DTS == DRS, DRS was ran in multiple decks, from jund and pod to the rock. Anyone splashing green and/or black did their best to find room for him. his banning was not about trying to shut down decks but to bring back archetypes and shake up the meta game more than anything else. All the decks that ran DRS, found valid replacements and are still viable.
We're talking about decks here btw, so a valid thing to consider is was jund winning 60% of the games when Bloodbraid Elf
was banned? Yes.
Eggs was banned for a different reason, it affected the tournament as a whole. Players going to time and taking forever to get their turn done, extending the tournament time beyond expectations.
Storm lost Seething Song
because it enabled a turn 3 or better kill... we know they want turn 4 or worse.
As seen do ban for other reasons than wins, but when it comes to pod, as a deck, it'll get neutered in the ban list when it hits that magical 60% wins number, like jund.
May 12, 2014 3:49 p.m.
I'm not particularly experienced in Modern, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but:
Isn't it true that all the answers you guys mentioned to deal with pod also deal with DRS? If you drop a Rest in Peace DRS is a vanilla 1/2 for 1. I don't see the big deal. There is so much graveyard hate available to deal with him. Maybe I'm biased because I like playing him, but I really don't think he should've been banned. What's next? Banning Lightning Bolt ? There's a huge difference between a card that is played in a bunch of decks, and a card that is degenerate and wrecks the format. And personally, I think pod is much closer to ban worthy than DRS (although I really don't think either should be banned).
May 12, 2014 4:07 p.m.
The main difference is DRS could go in ANY deck with B or G, and wreck it on his own. What does Pod do on its own? Just about nothing. Pod has to be built-around, DRS is just roids for anything B or G.
May 12, 2014 4:10 p.m.
Can't Lightning Bolt go in anything R? And isn't it played in almost every deck with R? The prevalence of play isn't something that should lead to a ban, unless the card has literally no answer. DRS has plenty of answers available, in all colors. Just let people hate it out with sideboard answers.
May 12, 2014 4:15 p.m.
kmcree They are trying to stop the Kitchen Finks
+
Melira, Sylvok Outcast
+
Viscera Seer
(or Murderous Redcap
instead of finks combo) with Rest in Peace
. It does nothing to stop the toolbox nature of the deck itself. Rest in Peace
is a bad answer to pod in general. Torpor Orb
and Stony Silence
are the better answer.
Again, and paraphrasing wotc/dci here, because DRS is good in all phases of the game and hurts some archetypes, he is getting banned so we can change the meta. It has nothing to do with being a degenerate card.
Basically he was just too efficient and good for the format and what they want from it for right now.
Pod itself is similar but misses on a key point, 'all phases of the game', a late pod usually won't win you the game, but prolong the agony, unless going for the combo (which some people are taking out).
Snapcaster Mage
is closer to DRS in terms of efficiency and how good he is than pod...
Pod might see a ban in the future if they want to do this for it also, but not for this coming modern season (summer).
May 12, 2014 4:16 p.m.
Well then if it's just about Wizards wanting to manipulate the format, then that's just total bullshit.
May 12, 2014 4:18 p.m.
kmcree the problem with that analogy is that bolt is usually a one time deal (two with snap) where as drs is repeatable use every turn it stays out on the field. It's apples to oranges, both fruits, but very different at the same time.
May 12, 2014 4:18 p.m.
Its not repeatable if you have a Rest in Peace . Its literally worthless. Again, I just don't think its ban worthy. Personally, I favor absolute minimal banning, so maybe that's just a personal preference. I agree DRS is great. But its not an Ancestral Recall .
May 12, 2014 4:20 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #32
They aren't manipulating the format, they are keeping it from being stagnant.
They have every right to do this, as its their game.
If you made a game, with tons of little items, and everyone only used one, wouldn't you feel a little bad?
May 12, 2014 4:21 p.m.
Why are we even discussing DRS here? The card was a mistake in the first place. It has easily Legacy power-level (as you can see, he is a 4 of in a lot of successful legacy archetypes).
What bugs me the most about Pod (besides the degenerate Glen Elendra Archmage into Zealous Conscripts into Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker combo) is the ability to tutor up answers to anything at any time. It has always been one of magic's greatest drawbacks, that you have answers in your deck, but you don't draw them or at the wrong time. That part of Magic almost gets nullified by Birthing Pod .
Yeah I know of all the great sideboard cards you can bring in to battle Pod... Problem is: they're all artifacts and/or enchantments with CMC 2 or less. Now, what colors does Pod usually run? Isn't there access to cards like: Abrupt Decay , Qasali Pridemage and Harmonic Sliver ?
May 12, 2014 4:25 p.m.
but if you're running DRS, you're most likely running Abrupt Decay which is the answer to Rest in Peace ... You also need to build your deck to not take advantage of the graveyard because of Rest in Peace , you're still shutting down the archetypes that DRS shutdowns.. I find this answer to be a bad one. I just use removal on DRS... FTR, I stopped playing pod because I didn't want to pick up Noble Hierarch to replace him. I love DRS and fought every time someone begged for his banning.
But at the end of the day, the format is still the same, feels good and plays very well, even better than when DRS was in the field. It was a good banning for the health of the format.
May 12, 2014 4:26 p.m.
Look at it this way.
a 1-drop 1/2 is above curve.
a 1-drop 1/2 with an accelerant ability is good.
a 1-drop 1/2 that can accelerate and gain life is very good.
a 1-drop 1/2 that can accelerate, gain life, and drain life is extremely good.
a 1-drop 1/2 that can accelerate, gain life, drain life, and hate out graveyards is ridiculous.
a 1-drop 1/2 that can accelerate, gain life, drain life, hate out graveyards, and be played in ANY deck with B or G is overpowered.
Sure, it folds to a handful of cards, but doesn't Ancestral Recall fold to Counterspell ? Or Notion Thief ? It's not a matter of if it can be beaten, but just how much power such a small creature carries.
May 12, 2014 4:28 p.m.
They are manipulating the format. They're essentially saying "we don't like it when a huge percentage of players play the same deck." So they killed Jund by banning DRS. The end result, however, is just going to be everyone playing Pod instead. I'd rather they just leave the format alone (with the exception of extremely broken cards/combos) and just let the sideboard hate dictate deck variance.
May 12, 2014 4:28 p.m.
Putrefy Because a card has answers doesn't mean it's a bad card... Please bring a real argument.
May 12, 2014 4:29 p.m.
But your exceptions are manipulating the format.
The end result of nerfing Jund wasn't a 100% switch over to Pod. Sure, some players made that switch, but just as many started playing Twin, Affinity, etc. or brewing. That last one is the key part. They want to keep the format growing, so if they have to knock the titan down a few pegs to do that so be it.
May 12, 2014 4:33 p.m.
Can't you just remove Birthing Pod ? Its actually pretty simple. I just don't really see the need to ban anything at all, DRS included. Just because a card is extremely good doesn't mean it deserves a banning. Modern is an incredibly powerful format, with access to 10 years worth of cards. DRS was not so incredibly overpowered that he couldn't be handled by the format, just as Pod isn't. Again, let the format settle these kinds of things itself with sideboard answers, new decks designed specifically to beat them, etc. I'd prefer a much more creative approach that a simple ban hammer.
May 12, 2014 4:34 p.m.
@ gufymike
Hurr durr, I never said with one word, that a particular card was bad because it could be answered(?). I just said, that bringing in Torpor Orb , Stony Silence , Grafdigger's Cage , Rest in Peace or whatever won't solve the problem for you. It can hinder the Pod-deck, but it just doesn't beat it.
It's not like a Slaughter Games against Scapeshift . Also what happens if you draw the Stony Silence and Grafdigger's Cage and they just beat you down with their curve, because you esentially mulled to 5 if they don't play the Pod?
It's great to have answers, I just don't think the answers to Pod are enough. Cut out the Pod and they still play a bunch of value-creatures and Chord of Calling ...
May 12, 2014 4:36 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #41
"So they killed Jund..."
"They Killed Jund"
"Killed Jund"
Jund just took 2nd place at a GP. That's pretty damn good for being dead.
May 12, 2014 4:36 p.m.
"Deathrite Shaman, however, is powerful at all stages of the game. Having a strong attrition-based deck as a large portion of the metagame makes it difficult for decks that are based on synergies between cards instead of individually powerful cards. We believe that removing Deathrite Shaman from the format will leave more room for future innovation."
They rightfully, believe that leaving him in hurts more than helps innovation.
May 12, 2014 4:38 p.m.
Putrefy What you're saying is not what sideboards are about... They only help you against certain matchups, not win you the games outright. Your deck and YOU still should be strong and good enough to withstand that onslaught and pull out the win If you can't, that's not a problem of the deck you're playing against...
I can tell you from experience, the pod deck is strong with and without pod and/or combo, but it is not unbeatable and to begin to think it is, is where you are losing the match up.
May 12, 2014 4:42 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #45
Wow, there is so much butthurt in this thread.
First, Pod doesn't need to be banned. The meta needs to be established enough for sideboard choices to reflect the expected meta. That takes TIME!
Second, DRS was banned because he locked whole archetypes out of competitive circles. Anything that involves your graveyard? At ALL? Too bad, DRS eats all of your threats. That means no Vengevine, Living End, Snapcaster Mage , and worst of all no creative rogues. When you have a card that is singlehandedly suppressing whole archetypes it needs to go.
May 12, 2014 5:42 p.m.
I disagree that DRS was really suppressing those archetypes. If your deck is so fragile that it can't remove a single creature threat it has no business in competitive magic. You mentioned Snappy specifically, he's almost always played in a U/W or U/W/x shell, which has easy access to Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile . Poof, DRS is gone! If you can't handle that, don't get in to competitive magic. That's my take anyway.
And incidentally, Rest in Peace hurts all of those decks much more than DRS did. Should it be banned too?
May 12, 2014 5:50 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #47
RiP hurts it more, yes, but when was the last time a RiP dealt damage? Or gained life? Or ramped? Or attacked? RiP is SB only.
Also, if you don't think that DRS didn't lock grave based decks out then you are just not going to listen to anything I say at this point, you have made up your mind and no one can provide you with sufficient data to change your mind. All I'll say about the matter is this: When was the last time a grave based deck other than combo (so not Finks+Melira pod shenanigans or Eggs) actually took first in a major GP event?
Why are we even on the subject of DRS anyways? This thread was about the prevalence of Pod. I suggest we (the commenters) derail this thread further.
May 12, 2014 7:07 p.m.
Isn't it possible that those decks weren't winning because they aren't very good when matched up against tier 1 decks in a competitive environment? The first and easiest thing most people toss into their sideboards is graveyard hate. Its available easily and in every color. Its pretty hard to win games if every single deck in the meta has tools in its sideboard that will completely shut you down.
If Wizards really wants to bring graveyard decks to the forefront, they'll have to ban all kinds of stuff like Rest in Peace , Grafdigger's Cage , Bojuka Bog , Rakdos Charm , etc.
May 12, 2014 7:34 p.m.
kmcree that's not the point. Graveyard based decks were dead in the water with DRS. Because it was so rampant in the meta. It had nothing to do with fragile, it had everything to do with; playing a few archetypes just was not viable and not the smart decision. Do you build or play a deck that loses over 50% of your game 1s to the majority of the meta? No you build a deck that's better and can compete strongly, preboard. Hence DRS locked out a lot of decks. I couldn't play Gifts Ungiven with DRS. U/W gifts tron is my second deck now because of the ban. Restrictions breed creatirivity.... goes both ways, at this time creativity is being focused on building decks without DRS as the restriction.
May 12, 2014 8 p.m.
Ok, but again as I mentioned earlier, if your deck doesn't have some form of removal to deal with DRS, if a single creature threat knocks you out every time, your deck has no business in competitive magic. I have never in my life built a competitive deck that didn't main board some sort of removal. Especially in modern where you have access to cheap easy stuff like Swords to Plowshares , Path to Exile , Abrupt Decay , etc. If you can't remove one creature, DRS isn't your issue.
DRS isn't indestructible. He doesn't have hexproof or regen. You can't blink him. He even dies to Shock for crying out loud. If you can't find a way to get rid of him, I seriously doubt your effort/creativity.
alpinefroggy says... #2
Pod is an inetresting one. Its not getting banned for the ptq season and its too early to call whether it should get banned and I dont think modern needs another ban. If anything it needs unbans. the problem I have with banning it is that the strategy is very beatable. See tron, scapeshift etc that are all very good decks against pod so it isn't like jund where it had a game against everyhting.
May 11, 2014 3:15 p.m.