Is there any place for a non-CoCo value/tutor deck?
Modern forum
Posted on Aug. 16, 2017, 2:40 p.m. by TheAnnihilator
A tiny bit of background: I'm a relic of Pod era, and I was actually 80% done with Pod when the ban happened -- no problem, I mainly play blue decks anyways.
Flash forward to now, and you see all kinds of pod-like Abzan decks, all featuring Collected Company. Thing is, I don't like Company -- it's way too random, and not really a toolbox card in the sense that I like about "Pod" decks. In all honesty, I just want Pod. Anyways, a card came out semi-recently that I noticed hasn't seen a whole lot of play, usually it's second fiddle if used at all -- Eldritch Evolution. Is it possible that a truely grindy/toolbox Abzan value/combo deck is viable without Company, and with this instead?
Dredge4life says... #3
Really, Pod isn't broken in this meta right now. I think it could come back to Modern if WoTC would give their head a shake.
August 16, 2017 3:37 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #4
Dredge4life Having played with and against both Pod and Company of varying types, I personally would much prefer that Pod be in the format than Company -- Pod is slower and more easily answered, Company is instant-speed and more random. It's not really a discussion for this thread tho.
August 16, 2017 4:05 p.m.
Snapdisastermage says... #5
There are circumstances where eldritch evolution is great value. But alot of the time it's actually card disadvantage. It's really as simple as collected comany is THE best card advantage/Value engine in green and at least one of the best card advantage/Value engines in the format. So the answer is, No. Unless pod comes back you are not likely going to find better. CoCo Is the most Impactful card in modern in a long time. (Even seeing fringe play in legacy)
August 16, 2017 6:47 p.m.
To echo what others said, I don't think Evo is ever going to be better than CoCo, especially now that there's a 2-card infinite (ish) combo that can be fetched with it. Similarly, I think the Traverse the Ulvenwald G/B/x decks might be the best shell for a tutor value deck.
However, that doesn't mean you can't make a serviceable pod type deck. I worked on one when Evo came out: Angel Pod, Evolved
It won't be tier 1 (even counters company waffles between 1-2 as it's just so susceptible to hate) but if you want a fun toolboxy deck that is supposed to play like Pod, there's a place to start! I never got to sleeve it up because I built a legacy deck instead, but I don't think it's far off the mark.
(As you can see in the comments on that deck, even people then thought CoCo was strictly better--but as you've said, the one upside with evo is consistency! Plus I like the ease of siding into a Rock deck.)
August 16, 2017 7:35 p.m. Edited.
Dredge4life says... #7
It is worth noting that Remand targeting Evo is a major blowout.
August 16, 2017 8:30 p.m.
Dredge4life: yeah, that's why it's best to have targets that replace themselves like Kitchen Finks and Voice. But yeah. Like I said, it's just not as good as Pod, but it certainly can play like it anyway.
August 16, 2017 8:41 p.m.
filthyc4sual says... #9
Honestly it's usually just like, if your playing a turor there's literally no reason not to play CoCo. The only exception I can think of is Kiki-Chord, and even then it's debatable. The card's just so good. Look at it this way. It usually ramps you. It gives card advantage. It gives consistency. The only cost is sometimes not hitting, which happens maybe 1 in 100 times with a dedicated CoCo deck. (WGX CoCo, Elves)
August 16, 2017 9:30 p.m.
Kiki-Chord is pretty fuckin' boss now that Eldritch Evolution has been printed. I'd recommend going that route. You get to go higher up on your curve than Collected Company, as well as more consistent "Oops? I win!" combos.
Hell, you don't even need Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. There's a bunch of lists floating around that are pure value decks.
Here is a list that goes straight for Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies + Duskwatch Recruiter.
Here is a list that just plays a bunch of hate crap. It even has 4 Aether Vials!
There's a bunch of these different variants being played that either play fewer copies of Collected Company or none at all.
August 17, 2017 5:41 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #11
filthyc4sual Except there is a real cost of not hitting anything useful. For example, finding any top 6 where you take a Birds and some random other creature is a "hit" but it really isn't. A T1 dork into T2 Evolution for Anafenza, the Foremost can slay dredge, or Eidolon of Rhetoric against Storm/AdNaus, etc. A company in those matchups might not actually do anything fast enough, Evo actually wins the game (in general) in those spots.
Even in matchups where you don't have any bullets to search for, You can always curve out Voice of Resurgence + Evo --> Renegade Rallier to get a Rallier and a Voice token while getting the voice back. Evo is insane with an active Gavony Township/Vizier of Remedies and persister, and can even turn the "all dork" boards into something scary. You can also board in as much non-creature disruption as you want in games 2/3 -- Thoughtseize, Path to Exile, Stony Silence, and Surgical Extraction are all cards that increase CoCo's chances of whiffing while being very helpful in difficult matchups.
August 17, 2017 5:57 p.m. Edited.
Snapdisastermage says... #12
TheAnnihilator While it's true You need to maintain a critical mass of creatures with coco decks, The dredge match is pretty easy actually cause their game plan is rather weak to unfair tactics. You hardly need to worry about hating out their graveyard as its very easy to combo. If you want a midrange/bullet deck without having the build restrictions of coco then yes evolution is the best card. If you're trying to make the argument that Evo is better than coco, Not to sound like a dick but that will never be the case.
August 17, 2017 6:23 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #13
Evo and CoCo are different cards, to say one could be better than the other in the exact same deck is just asking for a fight. Being able to get exactly what you want is great. Being able to get two things that you probably want is great too. What helps you more depends on your game plan, but obviously CoCo has taken hold of the meta, where Evo probably is going to need some support to find a spot.
MindAblaze says... #2
The problem is it's a 2 for 1. CoCo gets the 2 for one in your favour. I use Eldritch Evolution in a couple Commander decks and it usually does something useful. I think it's the one time use thing that really sets it apart from what Pod brought to the table.
August 16, 2017 2:57 p.m.