Is WotC killing modern?
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 12, 2015, 12:24 p.m. by wwhitegoldd
So, looking at the banned list yesterday it seemed to me that WotC is banning every card that simply gets to good, instead of printing or unbanning a card that would balance the impact of the previously said card. (I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this next bit.) With this in mind what if they simply unbanned every card on the list and let the PLAYERS find a way to balance the meta. And then after a couple of months if some card is simply dominating the format ban it or better yet print something to counteract it. what are your thoughts?
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Ponder
Preordain
these 4 cards in a row are why they dont unban everything because control would be the meta game then
February 12, 2015 12:33 p.m.
Wizards is certainly not killing modern. The joy of modern is that it gives people a chance to play decks with fairly recent sets, a legacy for semi-new players. The joy of a set like legacy is that it has a huge variety of tier 1 or tier 2 decks and the format isn't necessarily defined by these decks because at any tournament, one of these decks can break out and take a tournament win. These are formats that reward skill and practice as a player rather than who can just ram their deck with the most busted cards and win. The format promotes synergy and deck ideas rather than just having a pile of cards.
The reason the ban list has become what it is, is to stop decks from dominating the format. There were tournaments recently (pre-cruise) where birthing pod was sometimes over 50% of the field. That is far too oppressive for a format like modern. This is why cruise was banned because the format was starting to be oppressed by jeskai ascendancy and storm decks. A change needed to happen inn order to open up the format. These changes were very healthy to a diverse format because I believe at the PT, abzan shells were somewhere between 20-30% of the field. I would expect this number to go down a little as I felt like most of these decks were just podless pod. Just the birthing pod deck but rounded out because of no more pod.
The format is quite healthy right now. It is open to the deck builders. People have the opportunity of trying to build a deck with cards they like and test it out without the need to run a sideboard full of pod hate only to still lose to decks like pod. Now is the time to explore the format. Build some decks, play what you like to play. Don't just net-deck your way to a good tournament finish. There is no "correct" deck to play and it's great. Enjoy the semi-lower prices of some of the cards you needed to create the deck you wanted
February 12, 2015 12:34 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #5
Yes, Wizards is killin modern. They hate it so much they don't make reprint sets to make it more accessible.
But seriously, WotC wants diversity so they don't ban cards on the sole basis of it being too good. Modern has such a large card pool and they'd like to see as many different cards get their shot. Stuff that is too efficient like Green Sun's Zenith or Brainstorm makes games play out the same way every time and makes games repetitive, which is not what they want either.
And like ThatJunkMage said, making specific hate cards is hard bc then you have to make them accessible to every deck, which messes with the color pie an defeats the purpose of good/bad matchups.
I think modern is on its way to being SUPER interesting with the current ban list. When professional pod players are saying pod needed to be banned, it's probably true. People new to quit worrying about what's gone and focus on what they're now able to do. Hell, with all the burn going around now, soul sisters might even be playable. Nobody knows bc it's a wide open format. Enjoy it people!
February 12, 2015 12:37 p.m.
I won't go into astounding opinion details here because this conversation has been had in about 5 different threads already. But the short version would be, I've seen cards banned in every format, even vintage has a ban list, and all of these formats are still very much alive. Everytime something is banned we make a big deal out of it and have a zomg magic is dying reaction and magic just keeps on growing and diversifying anyway. Wizards aren't killing modern, we'll finish complaining, we'll replace pod with something (already done by the way, the podless pod deck even top 8ed the last pro tour), and modern will happilly move on.
February 12, 2015 12:57 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #7
my one year prediction: at this time next year the Modern meta will be comprised of 33% Splinter Twin.
If wizards really wants to shake things up just ban a deck when it wins. This way people cant get attached to a build because such and such a player just won the last gp, pt, scg open with it. Have decks rotate on a five event schedule so if deck A wins X tournament, that deck cannot be played by ANYONE for 5 major tournaments, then it can re-enter.
This would create much variety, slightly cut down on netdecking, and every single tournament would be literally something different. It would eliminate the need to be quite so aggresive with the ban list and also give players some security that their deck doesnt just up and disappear overnight. This type of change would offer a major shake up to the meta and would also ensure that each tournament has its own unique meta.
No doubt there will be some who will change just one or two cards and thats fine. You cant eliminate all of the underhanded players who will take any advantage for themselves.
Instead of decks you could ban archetype as a whole for 5 tournaments which I think would be interesting as all hell.
Let me know what you're thinking tappedout?
February 12, 2015 1:07 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #8
So what you're saying is "Play standard with a bigger card pool, but have it rotate every 6 hours". Seems good.
February 12, 2015 1:16 p.m.
PepsiAddicted says... #9
hah "let the PLAYERS find a way to balance the meta" yeah...better not ;)
February 12, 2015 1:24 p.m.
OP_Magikarp says... #10
If anything, Wizards is PROMOTING Modern. If they wanted to kill it, they wouldn't make their biggest event, a Pro Tour, in the Modern Format. At PT FRF we saw a large variety of decks and support. I'm still a little new to Modern but I support it 100% and once I get enough money I will definitely be taking part in it competitively. WIth so many cards available in a format, it's almost necessary to have some bans to keep the format as competitive a it is
February 12, 2015 1:39 p.m.
Do you even play modern? "after a couple of months if some card is simply dominating the format ban it" Pod dominated modern for years and they DID give treasure cruise a few months before banning it... Tons of people though it was going to be emergency banned before GP Omaha.
February 12, 2015 1:40 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #12
ThatJunkMage please explain what part of my previous post referenced standard, and how 5 tournaments (approx a month and a half) comprises six hours. Actually never mind you dont have to I know you were just being faceitious.
Wizards did not want the PT to be modern they wanted it to be standard and the players (pros) made a big stink so wizards relinquished and made the pt modern this year.
February 12, 2015 2:02 p.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #13
Wizards are trying to diversify the format, why would they kill something that makes them money? Its all about the big bucks in this world.
But seriously, they aren't trying to kill it, but to diversify it. Somethimes they make wrong choices but they usually do things to rectify it. I believe that Birthing Pod and Treasure Cruise should have been banned.
February 12, 2015 2:28 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #14
You have to understand that most players can't afford to have 3 or 4 different modern decks. stopping people from playing the deck of their choice simply because somebody won with a similar deck? that is honestly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. what if someone wins with u/r twin? by your suggestions, could someone play grixis twin, or temur twin? it isn't the same as u/r, even if they rely on the same interactions for the win. There are also many variants of abzan. will any variant be allowed if one variant wins? your suggestion simply cant be enforced. And what does it matter if people net deck? Wizards does not exist to tell people what they can play, they only do that when a particular card/set of cards become oppressive to an extreme. No one would play modern if you had it your way. it wouldn't be worth it
February 12, 2015 2:31 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #15
TO ALL
What about a Vintage version of modern? Only a restricted list?
February 12, 2015 2:37 p.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #16
THat would be interesting.
Unfortunately, cawblade with a restricted list is still cawblade so no.
February 12, 2015 2:38 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 how would they ban the deck... like lots of decks use the same spells example the majority of green runs goyf if a deck wins that happens to have goyf is that card suppose to be banned throught all decks for x amount of events or better example many decks run things like remand if a control deck wins does that mean every deck that runs remand needs to be punished
February 12, 2015 2:46 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #18
They'd ban an important card. Twin would get the enchantment banned, etc.
February 12, 2015 2:50 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #19
yep Glistener. Im not saying this would be 'better' or 'worse' it was more of just an idea to spark discussion. As I was writing out my firs comment I also thought of- but how would they control ppl just changing one card? The answer is they cant really. I had the idea maybe they could ban a given archetype for something like I said- five tournaments. Like I said it's obviously not the end all and be all of arguments about how to fix the modern format, I was just looking to spark some different dialogue.
I do not pretend like Im some expert on Modern- I havent even really played in the format outside of a couple handfuls of games, however I used to religiously play Extended on MTGO before the creation of what we now know as Modern, and from what I understand the format is based on the old Extended.
At the heart of the matter I was just hoping to spark some discussion and bring a different angle instead of the same angles that are always argued whenever someone makes a thread similiar to this.
February 12, 2015 3:11 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #20
that would be stupid, in my opinion. who would want to play in a format where they key piece of their deck can be banned for 5 events just because someone won with it? Im not talking permanent bans like with Birthing Pod, I mean, who can afford to switch decks for every tournament just because the deck they play doesn't do well?
February 12, 2015 3:13 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #22
I think thats an exageration- people already switch decks like every tournament- very rarely do they buy the whole thing usually they've got some pieces and then borrow some other pieces or just flat out borrow a whole deck. I dont think that this would be a barrier for anyone except for the newest of players- and they most likely arent playing in major modern tournaments if they're brand new.
Basically the idea behind this would be to deter people from just running the consensus 'best deck' because well, it has a winning track record.
It would also encourage people to branch out more, rather than seeing the same lists Ad Nauseam.
Those are the big plusses I can think of- that and ensuring the meta is never the same from tournament to tournament.
I can think of tons of negatives as well, Im unsure why the focus is always the negative though. :)
February 12, 2015 3:24 p.m.
Yes wizards are screwing up modern.
They're failing to reprint cards that need to be reprinted to increase accessibility.
They're failing to print modern relevant cards in large numbers in new sets
They're failing to let the meta run its course for extended periods before bannings (insufficient evidence for bans)
They're making poor ban decisions that seem to destabilise the meta instead of restabilise it (see pod ban and current abzan dominance)
When they do reprint cards they put them in limited print run sets which leads to increased prices, not decreased ones.
For the love of God. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Anyone praising modern variety needs to get a grip. Delver sat at just shy of 15% meta stake when treasure cruise was banned. Post banning abzan went up to 15% and comprised a whopping 37.5% of the pro tour top 8. What's even more impressive is that it only represented 30% of the decks going in. Therefore for it to gain percentage stake in the top 8 that means that the deck is overperforming compared to the rest. Wizards just made some really bad calls.
What they'll do now is either ban a part of abzan (poor decision) OR let the meta play out until people find the silver bullet that beats abzan OR incentivise other colours by unbanning old cards or printing new toys.
Every time wizards makes a ban the meta destabilises and an old deck gets a massive stake because it simply fills th void left by the old. This is obviously problematic. What they should be doing is strengthening the other options. And if something really needs banning - at least wait a yearly cycle.
February 12, 2015 3:30 p.m.
I honestly get so angry because I feel like tons of casual players came in to weigh in on treasure cruise due to it being "SO BROKEN" and then post banning insist the meta is varied and healthy when it's in literally a worse state it was in before. Fuming. I've been following modern for about two and a bit years now and I haven't seen such a sorry state of affairs since Jund. At least with Jund they waited a fair while before making those bans and even printed alternatives. They like, give it a chance through time and alternatives.
February 12, 2015 3:35 p.m.
15% of the meta taken up by delver, no two decks together dominating. "Ban plz"
50% of the meta taken up by burn and abzan. "healthy"
Do people know how to do evidence based decision making?
February 12, 2015 3:37 p.m.
i still dont get cruise ban like it was so easy to deal with tormonds crypt or negate or rest in peace
February 12, 2015 3:37 p.m.
i also dont get why siege rhino is as big of a problem as it is conterspells fix everything... there are many cards that turn off entering the battlefield triggers i just dont get it
February 12, 2015 3:41 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #28
Yeah, but no one wants to play Tormod's Crypt or Rest in Peace. Negate is good, but people still lost to Delver.
The issue is that those hate cards are way too narrow. The format needed to warp to deal with the card.
February 12, 2015 3:41 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #29
Saying that counterspells fix everything is ignorant. If you make your deck all counterspells, you will lose to the turn they play multiple spells or when you don't draw the right answer. Powerful cards will be powerful, regardless of whether or not they have the counterspell.
February 12, 2015 3:43 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #30
I agree with what you've said here ChiefBell a well informed opinion clearly. Im a big proponent of unbanning rather than banning for the simple reason you gave nearly every time a ban happens it destabilizes everything. I grew up/started playing during a time when there was a banning about once a month (probably an exageration, but far more tan there is today) and this is exactly what used to happen then as well.
In regards to the Pod banning I believe it was poor foresight. I think wizards thought that all the Pod players would just pick up and trade off all their old Abzan pieces and find a new deck to play, I dont think they anticipated people would run Project X/Abzan lists sans Pod. Why/How they came to this conclusion is what lends credenece to it being poor/no foresight on their part.
I think wizards needs to stop taking the advice of players who are still actively playing. HOFers should have a say, or anyone who is 'retired' as a player. Currently active players should not have any say- akin to when some organizations run contests and dont allow the employees to enter/win the prize.
February 12, 2015 3:44 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #31
I feel like there is a percentage of players (read: pros) who believe that Delver should not be a tier 1 deck, and made it known quite vocally in several articles written between the release of khans and the eventual banning of cruise.
I recall reading an article by someone (cant recall who now) and they were saying something to the effect of: 'when the bans come down and cruise goes away delver can go back to being a tier 1.5 deck where it belongs.'
Siege Rhino is a problem because he has an ETB effect that is better than almost all of the other creatures with ETB at his CMC.
The closest thing I can think of in recent memory is Blind Hunter, and it was gain 2 lose 2 for cmc4. He fits into a deck that has just a TON of other threats to deal with so you can run a deck full of counterspells and spot removal/sweepers and the deck will still likely blow you out.
You need ways to answer Siege Rhino in the same way that Siege Rhino answers you: at the life totals. With the presence of shocklands Modern is just hard on your life total in general, especially moreso if you're playing more than one color. Rhino fixes this for you, every rhino you resolve basically means you get a free fetch and a free untapped shock land. Thats big value in this format.
February 12, 2015 3:53 p.m.
i think Rest in Peace sould see more play espically if dredge is going to be a thing it also stops snapcaster mage in its tracks
there is also Drown in Sorrow for all the creatues in delver including the flipped delver
as well as stuff like Surgical Extraction hurts delver decks like if they turn 1 serum visions then remove all their card advantage from the game it hurts them
and the second deck in modern that problamatic there is stuff like Torpor Orb and hushwing griff
there is also counterspells those havent gone away
February 12, 2015 3:54 p.m.
do you think i should start doing YouTube videos about how to play modern? So much misinformation, it physically hurts me. Sure I'm not the greatest player in the world but I know better than to claim that rest in peace is the answer to all woes.
February 12, 2015 3:57 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #35
RIP is very narrow, it only really restricts a couple of decks. DiS is not a modern viable card- it's a sorcery to start with and Ill just leave it at that
Surgical Extraction vs Delver: if you take Serum Visions turn 1 from delver yes it can slow their tempo a little bit but by no means do you stop them cold by doing so.
Torpor Orb Im assuming you suggested to stop siege rhino. Abrupt Decay deals with it mainboard which most abzan decks run as a 4 of. Out of the side it gets worse when they bring in stuff like Reclamation Sage or Nature's Claim
Hushwing Gryff dies to every spot/sweeper removal. You might stifle one rhino as someone is trying to resolve it but I guarantee two things: It will die before their next one comes down, and most likely they'll let it hang out in your board until they either draw another rhino or don't want you chumping with it when they swing for lethal.
Im not trying to be negative at the moment just trying to draw a picture for you as to why these cards arent being used already
Counterspells are viable you're absolutely correct about that. Thing is Modern is a relatively quick format meaning you need to be executing some sort of a game plan by turn 2-4. If you're sitting there just bombing everything they drop with counterspells eventually either you're going to run out of counterspells or you're gunna wanna drop something to help you actually win the game since casting counterspells every single turn isnt a viable win con.
Vs some of the abzan decks that are coming out/have been out you're going to need to have a counterspell (or two) every single turn because that deck deals business cards from every point in the curve.
February 12, 2015 4:06 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #36
I would also watch a stream about that ChiefBell I have plenty of room for improvement within the modern format
February 12, 2015 4:07 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #37
PreZchoICE1"I feel like there is a percentage of players (read: pros) who believe that Delver should not be a tier 1 deck, and made it known quite vocally in several articles written between the release of khans and the eventual banning of cruise.
I recall reading an article by someone (cant recall who now) and they were saying something to the effect of: 'when the bans come down and cruise goes away delver can go back to being a tier 1.5 deck where it belongs.'"
The 'article' you're referring to in the second paragraph was a satire site.
February 12, 2015 4:07 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #38
Gspot that seems strange since I dont frequent any satire sites, especially in regards to MtG. Im fairly certain it was in an SCG article. I'd need to go back and look now, but Im almost certain I read that in an SCG article.
SCG could be classified as satire in some circles though I suppose.
February 12, 2015 4:14 p.m.
i do absolutely know how to play modern ChiefBell im throwing out ideas here not looking for the argument you dont know how to play modern because you suggest a card that is seeing fringe play that the card may be able to help
PreZchoICE1 on your point i dont see you suggesting better cards than what i'm suggesting and on the point of both cards being gone immediately even if the hushwing griff dies after the rhino hits didnt it then do its job of turning off a rhino?
im not claiming that any of the cards i mentioned will fix the problems im just throwing out cards that i could imagine claiming a spot in a sb so ChiefBell before you go around blaming players for not knowing what they're talking about or telling them how bad they are maybe you should give them a chance to respond or explain why it wouldn't work instead of this is the worst and will never work or even better suggest a card that will work better
February 12, 2015 4:16 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #40
PreZchoICE1 the only reaskn I mention it is because a friend sent me the link right before the ban, along with the phrase "satire is too real."
February 12, 2015 4:25 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #41
PreZchoICE1 and Gspot that quote was from the Weekly Mulligan on The Meadery, which is in fact, a satire article. The joke of the whole article was banning the entire Khans block. It was pretty funny.
Is it just me or has everyone on the site been extra salty lately? I know that I have done the same, but it seems like there is some extra animosity going around lately. Everyone is pissing off everyone
February 12, 2015 4:26 p.m.
mathimus55 I agree everyone has been a little annoyed recently my self included in that
February 12, 2015 4:28 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #43
Ok fair enough, you've got me there. I should have suggested cards that would be better, but theres also the outside chance the reason I didnt is because there isn't a card(s) (or one hasnt been discovered yet) that answers these Abzan decks with anything but the most infrequent of consistency.
Imo personally I would rather play against Abzan or Burn decks than against Splinter Twin or Bloom Titan, but thats just my personal preference because I dislike playing against combo decks.
Admittedly I dont know a whole lot about Twin decks other than what I've watched other people do (Ive never piloted one)
However I've spent a considerable amount of time playing with Amulet of Vigor on MTGO, and although it was never a traditional 'Bloom Titan' shell I've done lots of broken things with them, So I know their capability.
I also know they and their decks have little to no interaction with the opponent, which is fine, but its something I do not personally enjoy when Im playing Magic.
February 12, 2015 4:33 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #44
Mathimus wasnt it just a full moon? could have summat to do with it. Besides that I think there is a changing of the guard so to speak (sitewise) and people are feeling uneasy about it (my own assumption, based on my own admittedly poor observation)
Could just be that older users are getting tired of the same questions/discussions always cropping up at the exact same times of year ect
Could just be that everyone is under stress of some sort and it's being reflected when someone opposes someone else on a given topic. Ive been finding lately that people are getting super defensive/tense but that could just be my own personal experience.
February 12, 2015 4:39 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #45
mathimus55probably because of all the pod players and people invested in foil russian cruises.
February 12, 2015 4:41 p.m.
I think a huge problem is that there aren't imo exactly lots if cards to make interesting decks with that have untapped potentional like people seemed to fInd in theros-ktk block
February 12, 2015 4:43 p.m.
PreZchoICE1 says... #47
Gspot you're probably correct tbh, I have an admittedly terrible memory.
February 12, 2015 4:47 p.m.
One of the biggest rules of side boarding is to never side in a card that answers a single card in the opponents deck, but instead to side board in cards that answer their entire strategy. Rest in peace is a horrific sideboard card. It doesn't stop delver doing what it wants to do. They have serum visions, they have gitaxian probe, they have think twice, they have electrolyze. They can still happily win a game with no treasure cruise. The only reason you'd ever consider rest in peace is dredge because there it answers literally the entire strategy. It's also good against re animator.
Likewise stating torpor orb stops rhino is completely irrelevant. Ok cool. Sideboard in your torpor orb. Then get beaten in the face by the rhino that's still there. Or the goyf that you've not affected.
You.do.not.sideboard.in.cards.that.answer.one.single.threat.
That is not how you play modern. You sideboard in things that beat strategies.
February 12, 2015 4:51 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #49
There are/were plenty of exceptions to that, though. Ancient Grudge your Birthing Pod and Batterskull was the most noticeable one.
I'd watch a stream about playing Modern better. I'd also make my own, if I had the time or the resources.
February 12, 2015 4:53 p.m.
mathimus55 says... #50
Yea, I dunno. It used to be someone would make a point and would get a "yea, but..." response instead of raging. Not sure where it's coming from. Like I said, I know my first comment in the thread started off snarky but I feel like I reigned it in and made it obvious it was a joke. But yes I also agree that it does seem like the same topic comes up several times a day just reworded and making the counterpoint to the previous thread. It does get repetitive to hear people complaining about either side.
But anyway, back to the topic at hand: I don't think we need to freak out about Abzan being overplayed at one tournament. It was the first major event after the bannings so of course people are going to gravitate towards the more "reliable" or established decks. Burn always seems to pop up more after a big happening I feel. Abzan could very well be the result of Pod players not wanting to change their mana base, who knows. I think it's way to early to tell. I think if it keeps up Siege Rhino(or drain-o in my circle) might get the hammer if it turns Abzan into Jund of yore, but we've only had 1 tournament. Let's enjoy this period where we get to explore what is viable. Personally, I'm still going to try and make Phyrexian Obliterator work....
Servo_Token says... #2
You should read some articles on why the ban list is in place, and how cards are put onto it.
Also, printing a hate card isn't very easy when sets are developed years ahead of time.
February 12, 2015 12:27 p.m.