Jund Is Control
Modern forum
Posted on May 28, 2015, 8:11 p.m. by MAGESTIC_LLAMA
What is Control? What exactly constitutes a Control deck? Well, a Control deck is focused around controlling your opponent's hand, deck and board. Control is able to do so by generating card advantage, making sure they have more options than your opponent. Control eventually ends the game through a hard to remove win condition
You may be rolling your eyes at me explaining what Control is, but thats important. The angle Im going for is that Jund is a control deck, one of the best ones in Modern. Lets take a look at some of the best and recent Modern decks.
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9798&d=256507&f=MO
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9761&d=256174&f=MO
Lets take a look at the similarities and differences in these decks. For starters, they both run around 10-16 creatures. They use efficient threats that have utility stapled on, in order to generate card advantage. They have about 16-18 instants and sorceries. All of these are either hand attack, spot removal or two for ones like Kolaghan's Command or Maelstrom Pulse. These spells help Jund control the board so they can beat face with a Tarmogoyf or Scavenging Ooze. Removal is the backbone of Jund. Without efficiency, Jund just doesnt work.
Well what about Card Advantage? Jund has two of the best cards for generating value. Liliana of the Veil and Dark Confidant (Bob). These two together force your opponent into relying on drawing something good, get rid of their options while giving you an extremely powerful advantage of cards in hand. Both cards are 60$ for a reason, and are cornerstones of many Modern decklists.
Proactive Vs Reactive.
Modern is a turn four format. What I mean by this, is that Modern games are generally decided by turn four. This cuts out a large amount of decks, including decks that are exclusively Reactive. A Reactive deck responds to your opponent's threats, and doesnt develop a board presence. This kind of Control is what dominates Standard, due to the relative slowness of the format. However, Modern is dominated by Proactive decks. Delver lists, Red Deck Wins, Zoo, Urzatron and Infect all focus on developing a board position. The deal with the meta is that most decks can cast threats much faster than control can remove them. So for control to work in Modern, it must be Proactive. Jund fits that ticket.
This is my argument. Read it, consider it then post. Have a nice day all.
MindAblaze says... #2
I don't actually believe MM should be unbanned. I'm just saying "pure control" doesn't exist because the reactive blue spells that it requires don't exist in this format. And yes, Bolt and Path are good but neither of them require blue which is my argument.
The only reasons to play blue control right now are Snapcaster and Cryptic Command.
May 28, 2015 10:54 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #3
If you read my comment you would have seen the word "reliable" pop up.
May 28, 2015 10:54 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #4
asasinater13 I never said it wasn't control. I said that it wasn't "pure control". There's a difference.
MindAblaze Once again, there's a line between pseudo and pure. They are two different things which are similar in many ways but have very different playstyles.
May 28, 2015 10:57 p.m.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #5
I'm gonna have to disagree with your statement about the goal of control
May 28, 2015 10:57 p.m.
I feel like this whole debate is just really petty semantics and not much useful info is coming out of it. What difference does it make if Jund falls under one label or another? It's one of many decks, with similarities and differences to all the many other decks.
Not trying to be the moral high-ground guy here I just don't really see the point of this whole debate (although if there is one don't hesitate to correct me; I don't want to be rude).
May 28, 2015 10:57 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #10
Pseudo control or pure control? Pseudo doesn't have to get into the late game. In fact it rarely does.
May 28, 2015 11:08 p.m.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #11
Neither has to, because there isn't really a "true" control
May 28, 2015 11:14 p.m.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #14
Pure control doesn't exist. It's a non-existent term.
May 28, 2015 11:19 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #15
Of course. I use it brcsuee its the best term that I can think of that describes what I'm trying to say. I'm sure there's another one.
May 28, 2015 11:21 p.m.
I honestly think this whole argument has started because you don't have a real understanding of what a Midrange deck is.
A midrange deck is something that can sideboard into a faster paced deck against a deck that is slower than it, in order to go under it. And at the same time, has the ability to sideboard into a control match up vs. aggro decks. And it does so well. That is the definition of a midrange deck.
Does Jund become the controlling deck in aggro match ups? Yes. Does Jund become the aggressor when playing against any blue based control deck? Yes. That makes it midrange. End of argument.
May 28, 2015 11:29 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #17
Semantics, definitions, labels, blah blah...
Scope it. True control is Draw-Go. Nuff said. Tempo is you lay a threat or two (Goyf, Delver, whatever), and protect it. Midrange has some ramp and Tempo mixed, Gruul Tron as an example. Jund and Abzan can function as 'Cruel Control' decks, in that they utilize discard and removal to control the board state whilst maintaining a board presence of their own, sometimes without maintaining card advantage. Jund and Abzan are also flexible, making them potent decks. Combo should be self explanatory, with Collected Company and Splinter Twin being the ish in the format.
TL;DR- True control absolutely requires 
for card advantage and counterspells. But hey, Mumford and Sons cut a new album that ain't folk, so what do I know. :-P
May 28, 2015 11:29 p.m.
And secondly, you have to ask yourself. Is it possible, with my deck's build, that I will at some point end up in a damage race? The answer, if you are a control deck, is no. Why? Because you will have either have stabilized the board, or have died. If the answer is yes, because you are running tarmogoyfs, huntmasters, oozes, whatever the fuck other creature that comes down on turn 2-4, then no, you are not a control deck. You are a grindy midrange deck.
May 28, 2015 11:33 p.m. Edited.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #19
My label disagrees with your label, my defintion disagrees with yours. This point is moot.
May 28, 2015 11:40 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #20
Alright, we'll look at miracles in legacy. That is a pure control deck, because the aim is to make the game go long, because miracles has an excellent late game. It stalls the game out forever, and locks out opponents with Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top .
Jund is not a pure control deck, because the aim is NOT to draw the game out forever and win with amazing late game. The aim is to grind out the opponent until they are unable to fight you. Attrition is not pure control, but uses control elements to wear down the opponent, and trade 1 for 1.
May 28, 2015 11:43 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #21
@MAGESTIC_LLAMA True Draw-Go doesn't exist in Modern outside of American/Jeskai control. Legacy has Miracles/Counter Top. It does indeed exist, however is difficult to pilot and may be meta dependent.
May 28, 2015 11:46 p.m.
It's not a hard concept, I really don't understand why you are arguing so hard over something you are not right about. Another example other than Miracle was last standard seasons Sphinx Control. Board wipe, Draw cards, Board wipe, spot removal over and over etc, until you opponent is out of cards and you can drop an Aetherling.
If you built a jund deck with literally like, four creatures, and the rest of the cards were hand disruption, removal, a few Damnation's, and a way to gain some life, you could call it a control deck.
May 28, 2015 11:47 p.m.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #23
Legacy and modern arecompletely different formats. Comparing metals is irrelevant and pointless. Control in Legacy and control in modern are two different things.
May 29, 2015 12:39 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #24
I was providing an example of what true control is. That definition pervades the existence of formats.
May 29, 2015 12:42 a.m.
I totally agree with the OP.
Assault Loam ftw!
I also find it hilarious when people try and correct me when I call Grixis Delver control. Um, excuse me, if your deck's only creatures are 4x Snapcaster, 4x Delver of Secrets, 2x Tasigur, and maybe 2x Grim Lavamancer then you're playing a control deck. I mean every other card in the deck is capable of killing creatures, discarding, drawing cards or countering.
Seriously modern players are so nit picky about a list being called something different because 2-6 cards are different.
I had somebody try and tell me Smallpox wasn't a control card before. I just laughed at him as his Delver of Secrets Flip died a horrible death.
May 29, 2015 12:46 a.m.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #26
Jund is Proactive control. CounterTop is reactive. Proactive control lists such as delver or jund are some of the only good control lists in Modern
May 29, 2015 1:06 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #27
So here's the definition of a control deck.
And here's the definition of Midrange:
"Midrange can be considered an archetype in its own right, but is essentially a cross between ramp and aggro. A typical midrange deck has an early game plan of mana ramp and control, but begins to play threats once it reaches four to six mana. A midrange deck will often seek to play a reactive, attrition-based game against aggro decks and a more proactive, tempo-based game against control decks. Colloquially, this is referred to as "going bigger" than aggro and "getting in under" control.
Example cards: Huntmaster of the Fells Thragtusk, FarseekExample decks:Jund Midrange, which used Farseek to get out Huntmaster of the Fells and Olivia Voldaren on turn 3, and overwhelm the opponent with them."
Insert competitive Modern cards where relevant.
May 29, 2015 1:16 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver I'm honestly not sure if some of the people on this thread are trolling or not. Like, you and Jex obviously get it, but some of these other people... it's honestly not worth it at this point to keep on going.
And as for kengiczar, delver is a tempo deck. Every delver deck is a tempo deck. They run a few threats, and then control the board. And if their threats die, they play another, and go back to mana denial and counterspells. That doesn't make them a control deck. They make sure all of their spells and answers are less expensive than their opponents. Say it with me, Tempo.
May 29, 2015 1:20 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #29
Uthden Trolls require Wrath of God and Damnation for good measure lol.
May 29, 2015 1:26 a.m.
I can agree that it's Tempo but really an Esper control deck has to face the same kinds of decisions when somebody is trying to kill their Celestial Colonnade. Do I let that one die, or waste a valuable resource trying to protect it? If I still have 2-3 left in the deck I let it die, then play another, then go back to beating their face in while I control the spells they cast.
There have also been matches where I have to choose between letting a Siege Rhino resolve or saving my Celestial Colonnade. I have chosen to let the Siege Rhino resolve knowing that I still have 8+ kill spells in the deck and entered into damage races, and won.
May 29, 2015 1:30 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #31
hahaha....oh this thread man i've been checking in for the last few hours and I'll tell you what the issue is.
One group of people is defining control but it's win conditions
One group of people is defining control by it's game play
Personally I don't care either way but realize now this argument is 100% pointless because it's a matter of perspective. You might as well be arguing political agendas here man.
ChiefBell Have some reading material
May 29, 2015 1:32 a.m.
@ VampireArmy you're right. I started reading an article by Ben Bleiweiss from 2006. Hopefully by the time i've finished reading it i'll be able to understand where other people are coming from.
I've definitely decided to start calling my control decks "Esper Colonnade" though. One week I'll really surprise them by switching out the colonnades for Creeping Tar Pit and they'll be all "I thought you were playing Esper Colonnade!"
May 29, 2015 1:38 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #33
How is that at all relevant?
I also give up on this conversation, You asked for evidence, Myself and a few others supplied reasonable evidence and you choose to ignore.
Ciao!
May 29, 2015 1:39 a.m.
@ aeonstoremyliver - I really like that definition of control. Based on that page I would consider Seismic Assault, Splinter Twin (Jeskai) and Esper Control all control decks.
What kind of card would you all consider Remand, Silence, Dark Confidant to be though I wonder? I am tempted to say Tempo for the first two and not sure about Dark Confidant.
May 29, 2015 2:05 a.m.
It's midrange. Midrange is a deck with control and aggressive elements. It's not just control because it's not purely a stall deck with a few wincons - the deck design philosophy is waaaaay different!
But I always say Junk and Jund are control decks in disguise. They play like them a lot but they're not just control because they do more than that.
I mean if you count any deck with some interaction as control then burn is control. Except it isn't because it only has some interaction - it's gameplay isn't entirely pivoting on that interaction.
May 29, 2015 3:15 a.m.
Because the thing is - all decks contain elements that make them similar to all other decks. But that doesn't make them worth categorising as the same thing.
Dogs and sheep are almost exactly the same but just because they look the same I don't go around calling all dogs sheep and all sheep dogs because I recognise the nuances.
You guys are committing philosophical fraud if you refer to Jund as just pure and simple control.
May 29, 2015 3:19 a.m.
I think kyuuri117 hit the nail on the head.
Control decks have a controlling gameplan.
Aggro decks have an aggressive gameplan.
Midrange decks become control against aggro and become aggro against control. They skirt the edges of both.
I mean, if you really want to have this argument you ought to play the deck (BG/x) excessively with other control decks to see how they play out. Protip: it's completely differently.
May 29, 2015 3:29 a.m.
ChiefBell wrote it out pretty well. The only thing I want to add is BGx Rock decks can be pure control. A ton of disruption and control elements and then a single late game bomb like Batterskull or Thrun, the Last Troll is a viable build.
May 29, 2015 3:52 a.m.
I have to agree with ChiefBell and kyuuri117. Against aggro-decks you're control against control you have to be aggro as you can't win the long game against them. Jund is a superb midrange-deck.
May 29, 2015 3:56 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #41
Then what would 8-Rack be? It's definitely not midrange, but I wouldn't call it dedicated control either. Hence the need for another appellation.
May 29, 2015 7:39 a.m.
It's probably an all-in aggro deck because every inquisition or thoughtseize is your version of bolt etc.
Like you're not controlling BECAUSE you want dominion of the board. Rather you are controlling BECAUSE you want them dead as soon as possible.
May 29, 2015 7:57 a.m.
I would classify 8-rack as a strange form of combo. It has certainly no midrange-components as it lacks powerful creatures. It's not aggro because it takes a very long time to kill you. It has controlish elements so maybe it's best classified as combo-control.
May 29, 2015 8:32 a.m.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #44
8rack is control. Read your own definition if your to adhere to it.
May 30, 2015 1:31 a.m.
But equally it just tries to race as fast as possible. It aggros by controlling.
May 30, 2015 6:08 a.m.
ModernCentralPublic says... #46
Jund isn't control, its midrange.
Control is reactive style gameplay with either combo or mutli-purpose cards like snapcaster mage, lightning bolts, and manlands. You don't need to draw cards to do this, but it certainly helps.
Anyone who has played jund knows that jund uses powerful creatures and amazing tempo rather than insane card advantage to win, although it certainly can win with card advantage depending on how the game plays out.
May 30, 2015 10:07 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #47
What is this about Jund and tempo? The deck doesn't go for tempo plays, it goes for power plays.
May 30, 2015 10:20 p.m.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #48
If you haven't seen "insane card advantage" you haven't seen Jund
May 31, 2015 12:07 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #49
Let's spark a new semantics discussion: Burn is a combo deck.
May 31, 2015 12:10 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #50
Has anyone called fluffybunnypants yet? If not i just did. Enjoy buddy. This thread is a goldmine
bijschjdbcd says... #1
I agree with that statement.
May 28, 2015 10:53 p.m.