Let's talk seriously about DnT in Modern.
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 4, 2019, 7:57 a.m. by WizardOfTheNorthernCoast
Death and Taxes. A sweet sweet deck that combines aggro and control. I've personally always been fascinated by the deck, though I never built it because of its supposed lack of power in Modern.
The Legacy version has stuff like Karakas , Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic , which give a ton of reach to the deck.
I feel like DnT is a bit underwhelming vs control, but Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is nuts against the Phoenix decks.
: With a splash of green, we could play the 'new' Knight of Autumn (super toolbox creature, especially great vs Burn and Zoo), Voice of Resurgence and the card everyone sleeps on : Wilt-Leaf Liege .
: Arguably the best color to splash because it allows to play Thoughtseize and makes the 'combo' Tidehollow Sculler / Wasteland Strangler / Eldrazi Displacer possible.
: opens the door to the sweet tech of Magus of the Moon and Dire Fleet Daredevil (vialed in, wooooh so sweet!) + Lightning Bolt to clean early game/close late game obviously.
My question is simple : can DnT be an actual thing in Modern? If you think so, should we have to reconsider/rethink our approach of the deck based on the Modern Meta? I guess Humans is just better at what DnT does, even though the game plans are not entirely the same?
I'd love to hear you guys' opinions on the topic!
NB : I'm not a tournament grinder, and have been play mostly Burn for the past years. I guess a version of DnT would do it for FNM's, right?
The closest thing you'll get to Legacy D&T in Modern is Eldrazi & Taxes looking to abuse Legacy D&T staple Flickerwisp and other exile effects with Eldrazi processor Wasteland Strangler . It's not a bad deck, and can definitely compete on the FNM level, although it's unlikely to make Top 8 at a GP or anything.
February 4, 2019 9:53 a.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #4
SynergyBuild, 3 things here :
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Everyone sleeps on Liege in Modern (we're in this part of the forum, the fact that Legacy plays it more isn't relevant). When was the last time you saw it at a Modern tournament or LGS? I've never EVER faced it. Though I remember at some point it was around 20€ when it got reprinted and everyone acknowledged its existence before forgetting again for some reason.
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Hatebears and DnT, though they have similarities, are not the same decks. Please - and it's for everyone out there too - stop mixing them both.
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"Hatebears is a bad aggro deck with a really good matchup against unfair lists" - I fully agree, but Modern is mostly unfair decks, right? Death's Shadow, Phoenix, Storm, Ad Nauseam, Dredge, Tron, Lantern, Valakut, ... So why isn't DnT (or 'hatebears' for that matter) more prevalent then?
I feel like it's playable, but it's obviously not (based on the data) and I'm not sure what I'm missing. It's not the small bodies, because Humans are barely bigger and yet they're played a LOT.
February 4, 2019 10:01 a.m.
SeekerofSecrets says... #5
I play storm so take this with a grain of salt but I honestly think that d&t/hatebears are simply out classed by humans and spirits. Of course they all are "disruptive aggro" but both spirits and humans are MUCH more explosive and can close out games while still having decent disruption. As a storm player I'd rather play d&t because your going to give me enough time to play around the hate while humans normally closes the game before I can stabilize. I definitely think it's viable at an FNM level though, there's a list at my local shop that runs the kiki combo that'll go 4-0 every know and then.
Also I would love to run eldrazi and taxes if I had vial, it looks like a blast to pilot!
February 4, 2019 10:48 a.m. Edited.
rockleemyhero says... #6
I'd be interested in a version that runs simian spirit guides to power out t1 thalias and cat jesuses. Theres a huge difference between a t1 vs t2 thalia. I think thalia stompy was a hot thing for a min a few months back in some of the mtgo challenges.
EDIT: found the decklist I was talking about
February 4, 2019 10:50 a.m. Edited.
rockleemyhero says... #7
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20843&d=337985&f=MO
The link didn't work. Sorry about the double post!
February 4, 2019 10:51 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #8
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast I played Wilt-Leaf Liege last Friday in my GW Little Kid list. I mentioned it prior, apologies from me if I didn't make that clear.
Also, mind explaining the difference in hatebears (the deck) and DnT, I know a hatebear is a type of creature and a deck, but that is the only difference I know of. Sorry I I got that wrong.
Finally... While Thalia, Guardian of Thraben punishes storm and other lists in Modern, and Leonin Arbiter puts in work, I just think the modern brand of unfair is a worse matchup. The amount of free interaction like Force of Will that is relied on in Legacy that a Vial-ed in Thalia can stop is immense, and Mother of runes protecting against Moderns vast removal sweet would bring a lot to the deck. As well, Death's Shadow isn't one of the types of decks that DnT really punishes hard, and while Thalia can Crush Pheonix (Excluding their 3 Gut Shots and 4 lightning bolts and 2 Lightning axes), and Ad Nauseam hates her too, that makes the deck super reliant on finding Thalia to get enough time to put together a field of relatively weak creatures to kill. It just doesn't do enough without Stoneforge Mystic in terms of board presence. Splicer is close... but clearly isn't turn 3 Batterskull with Mother or Vial on 1 to help out.
Also, what is unfair about Lantern?
February 4, 2019 11:08 a.m.
I think it's a good deck... if I put one together I would have Phyrexian Revoker in the sideboard and splash black for Thoughtseize and Sign in Blood abuse shocklands with Death's Shadow ... maybe even go esper and get access to Meddling Mage ?
February 4, 2019 12:15 p.m.
Flooremoji says... #10
I think DNT could compete. But maybe it couldn't either. I guess it depends on the meta!
I have played against the liege once, but haven't faced that player again.
Icbrgr: Maybe Night's Whisper insteed?
February 4, 2019 12:28 p.m.
@Flooremoji I think you are right and 9/10 times whisper is better than sign for color fixing alone! I personally just like the option for a desperate Shock to close a game after combat but again I agree whisper is probably the better choice.
February 4, 2019 12:39 p.m.
rockleemyhero says... #13
I dont think you want to run thoughtseizes in a hate bear deck. You naturally have a slow clock and paying 2 for them through thalia seems like a losing strategy. Just playing thought knot seer checks all the boxes you want.
February 4, 2019 1:18 p.m.
i think it boils down the the T1/T2=thoughtseize.... its sooooo good when opponents have "their version of a perfect hand" and you can pluck out their wincon/ Wrath of God or just set them back for a blank play/hope for a good draw. Thought-Knot Seer is really good no doubt about it especially if your looking for that 4/4 to speed up the clock of the hatebears.... for that reason side by side i can see Thought-Knot Seer being a better choice than thoughtseize. but if you wanted to use Death's Shadow the synergy of shocks and sign/whisper could make him enormous very quickly......this is just my own theory on the subject of putting together D&Ts..... ive never piloted the deck before and frankly have a lot of brainwashing from playing a Grixis Deaths shadow variant as of late lol.
February 4, 2019 2:12 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #15
One thing to note is that Leonin Arbiter is nearly useless against Humans, among other decks. Modern's manabases use less fetchlands now than they historically have. Death's Shadow is the exception.
My gf has death and taxes (I built it for her because mono-W D&T is actually really cheap if you don't include Vials). It routinely beats my Grixis Control deck by tempo-ing me out. Even without vial it's an efficient deck. Much like humans, 1-for-1 removal is good, but it's usually not enough. But humans takes 1-for-1 removal better than D&T.
One big problem for the deck will be Terminus . Terminus sucks for a D&T player, and without the reach of cards like Stoneforge Mystic D&T in modern doesn't currently have a viable plan for it. In legacy you can just land an equipment and then play one creature at a time until one of them connects with the equipment. Once the equipment connects you're winning (especially if it's Sword of Fire and Ice). If control played Supreme Verdict instead, I think it would be a good matchup for d&t. Following the example of Legacy, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is sideboard tech that's really good against miracles, but he might not fare as well against Teferi in modern.
I think the biggest problem for D&T is that it's overshadowed by Humans and Spirits. They're all Vial decks, so they occupy roughly the same spot in the meta. Merfolk has the same problem right now.
February 4, 2019 3:08 p.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #16
Thanks for your inputs, y'all.
SynergyBuild, here's a good thread to better understand the difference between DnT and Hatebears ;)
Running Death's Shadow and Night's Whisper sounds bad, unless you're going all in Abzan to take a lot of damage on purpose and play Assassin's Trophy for extra shenanigans with Leonin Arbiter , but even then that really seems a lot of effort for a bit of synergy.
rockleemyhero, Thoughtseize in that kind of deck is especially good T1 if you have a good disrupting hand. You take out the most 'problematic' piece or their earliest threat, drop Thalia and tempo them a whole lot. Also, casting a 1-mana spell through Thalia isn't impossible you know :)
ToolmasterOfBrainerd, indeed Terminus is a real problem. Could Nevermore be a good answer? Or Mana Tithe ? Mhhh idk. Maybe it's just a bad matchup among others. Arbiter seems a lot weaker nowadays too that's true, hence the suggestion I made to 'reconsider/rethink our approach of the deck based on the current Modern Meta'.
Could a kind of hybrid between Abzan Little Kid and DnT work? Or would it be better to go all in on Eldrazis?
February 5, 2019 10:28 a.m.
honestly i really like your idea of Abzan to turbo abuse Leonin Arbiter with Assassin's Trophy / Abrupt Decay / Path to Exile and Field of Ruin / Ghost Quarter even more than bothering with Death's Shadow ... i couldnt say anything about Eldrazi (im already out of my element TBH). Good luck! happy brewing!
February 5, 2019 11 a.m. Edited.
rockleemyhero says... #18
As someone whos casted a lot of thoughtseizes in my day, I will respectfully disagree with that WizardOfTheNorthernCoast. Hatebear decks really want to be dropping a t1 Aether Vial for tempo and speed their threats out. While going t1 thoughtseize into t2 thalia/hate bear sounds like a good plan in theory, in practice it doesnt do enough to establish a clock against combo. From the other side of things, combo decks are extremely resilient. This is why decks like mardu pyromancer, which played 6-8 thoughtseize effects mb, have fallen out of favor in the meta game. Jund can do it because it has big creatures like goyf to establish a clock in addition to lots of 2 for 1s like liliana of the veil. Thalia isn’t a powerful enough threat to buy enough time to seize a win when you are playing mostly 2 and 3 power creatures for fair mana costs.
TL:DR: playing thoughtseize in a hatebear deck is a trap that combo/control players dont really care about
February 5, 2019 11:30 a.m.
SeekerofSecrets says... #19
I have to agree (as a combo player) I'm much less scared of turn 1 thought seize into turn 2 thalia vs turn 1 vial into turn 2 thalia. Hang disruption really only hurts me in multiples backed up by a short clock. Vial should (in theory) provide both. Also a vial and thoughtseize in hand seem very awkward turn 1
February 5, 2019 12:50 p.m.
Yeah the reason you don't see DnT in Modern is because there's not enough mana disruption like in Legacy. Field of Ruin was a big boost to Modern to be used with Ghost Quarter . However, there's still nothing compared to Wasteland and Rishadan Port , which are the main powerhouses used in combination with Aether Vial .
To get the same power out of Ghost Quarter / Field of Ruin that you would out of Wasteland , you need Leonin Arbiter or similar effects. This doesn't allow you to start fucking with your opponent's mana on turn 1 or even turn 2, which is how DnT destroys people in Legacy.
SynergyBuild says... #2
You say everyone sleeps on Wilt-Leaf Liege - a staple in some GW Little Kid decks as well as some legacy Chain of Smog decks, so you are clearly opinionated on this topic, however I want to make the point that while DnT and it's brethren are not the classical "control" decks. They are stax-like in their use of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben , Leonin Arbiter , and Ghost Quarter / Wasteland (If you are in legacy) as opposed to the more mainstream control lists that are permission, using counterspells, 1 for 1s, and some card advantage to break parity on their own 1 for 1s.
Their biggest strengths and downsides are in the other name, "Hatebears". A Grizzly Bear is only aggressive in some limited formats, while in constructed it is weak as a way to close out games fast, whereas the stax elements of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Leonin Arbiter are only very useful in formats where abusive or unfair decks thrive. Hatebears is a bad aggro deck with a really good matchup against unfair lists, but if you pair it up with a Zoo list it will fail, so modern isn't the format it belongs to; just a pile of efficient creatures and it will die.
TL;DR: Leave DnT to legacy IMO.
February 4, 2019 8:46 a.m.