Making Grixis Tier 1...with midrange!
Modern forum
Posted on Nov. 23, 2015, 10:07 p.m. by Sk0oMa
Ok, so I moved the original post from "deck help" to the modern discussion forum...so...Discuss!
I've been playing Grixis since before Kolaghans command made it cool lol, and while I loved Grixis Control while it was around, it was doomed to not last in the modern format. I do however firmly believe that Grixis belongs in Tier 1, and it can make its comeback, but if it does it will be in midrange form. Delver, Twin, and tempo shells are all fine and good, but they don't have what it takes to hang for the long haul. Here is a base list I have made to get the discussion going and show any players who may not really know what a midrange version would look like. Thoughts?
Grixis Control is awesome! I don't deny it for a second! I LOVE IT! But it's not tier 1 anymore, it fades in and out of 1.5 at best, which is great, but not the point. I think midrange is in a really good position.
November 23, 2015 10:15 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #4
Your deck is no different from that deck except for some small (ultimately irrelevant) card choice discrepancies.
November 23, 2015 10:17 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #5
Blue Jund grixis control top 8'd, not draw-go chapin control. Your deck is very much blue jund, without a doubt.
November 23, 2015 10:25 p.m.
GlistenerAgentThat deck is mi-labeled, it's NOT Grixis control, it's Grixis Midrange. So it further proves my point, and as for the card choices that you said were small and ultimately irrelevant, I strongly disagree, they are very relevant. I feel my list is more refined and fine tuned than his by far
November 23, 2015 10:55 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #7
Or he just had a different idea of what the metagame would look like.
The names are not very relevant. Most people call his deck Grixis Control nowadays. That, or Blue Jund.
November 23, 2015 10:59 p.m.
It's definitely closer to "Blue Jund" I agree, but the key difference is they run and rely on Abbot and more Jace, with blue being VERY tertiary, I run a bit more blue, and find Abbot lackluster and more of a "trend"
November 23, 2015 11:04 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #9
Yeah, don't bring up the debate of whether blue jund is midrange or control .... it's almost as bad as bringing up the Nacatl in burn thing all over again. It really doesn't matter what it is. It's more controlly than BGx, but less controlly than draw-go chapin control. It's label isn't relevant. Although the card choices are fairly relevant. Your deck and that blue jund list will play very similarly a lot of the time. They have very similar game plans and a lot of card overlap, but the different choices in cards you have made do make a difference, but not enough that they're different decks.
I have to agree on Abbot, although I feel the same about Jace. Snap is just better in my opinion.
November 23, 2015 11:07 p.m. Edited.
Most people do not call it Grixis control, Grixis control is very distinctive and very different, but I agree that it's mostly being called Blue Jund lately, even though "blue Jund" has been around much longer and was simply Jund with a blue splash lol
November 23, 2015 11:07 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #11
W/e.
Deck is good. Perhaps not tier 1, but the tiers are defined by popularity, not by power level. You certainly have the tools to compete.
To be honest, I still really like Cryptic Command in the deck. Two-for-ones are two-for-ones.
November 23, 2015 11:11 p.m.
Agreed on snappy, that's why I run 4 of him and only 3 Jace where most "blue Jund" lists reverse those numbers...however I can see the argument that in a deck with this much recursion, and Jaces ability to filter, having 4 Jaces is fine given his lightning rod status and since extra copies can be pitched...
November 23, 2015 11:13 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #13
Yeah, you're supposed to play four Jaces. You're also supposed to play four Thought Scours. That card pulls everything together. Makes Jace better, fuels delve, provides Rise/Fall and Kommand targets, yada yada.
November 23, 2015 11:20 p.m.
You're not SUPPOSE to do anything...that kind of thinking is very elitist and matter of fact...his list is good, and he top 8'ed, but there are choices that I feel are wrong...and I'm not talking about sideboard, as I didn't put any effort into it lol. I can see justification for why he ran what he ran, but I don't agree with them all, and that's what makes Magic so great. He isn't automatically right (and LAW) just because he got a top 8 with that particular list at that particular time...
November 23, 2015 11:51 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #15
I understand that he isn't right because he Top 8'd. I'm one of the first people to dismiss new things until I've tested them. Everyone knows that that mindset is incorrect, and I'm not using it at all.
What I am saying is that I firmly believe that Jace and Thought Scour should be four-ofs almost regardless of what else you are doing (so long as the shell remains similar). Thought Scour is too powerful with your other cards not to have as much access to as possible. It's a similar deal with Jace, and you even beat the problem of drawing 2: discard the second one, or play it when the first one dies.
November 23, 2015 11:54 p.m.
Ok, I wasn't accusing you of being elitist, and I'm glad we are on the same page as far as that's concerned. That being said, I HAVE tinkered back and forth on the idea of dropping to 1 liliana for the 4th thought scour. AND I have went back and fourth on whether or not I should switch the numbers of snappy and Jace...but as of right now I only own the 3 Jace, but I have the full play set of snaps...so I didn't want to pay the cash if I didn't have to, and so far in testing, it isn't really been that big of a deal...but I do think it might be the better route overall.
November 24, 2015 12:03 a.m.
I just saw a comment higher up that I missed about liking cryptic command in the list lol, I agree, I love that card, but it's so hard to have the 3 blue AND leave 4 mana open in a more tap out style deck :(
November 24, 2015 12:08 a.m.
zyphermage says... #18
I think that even though a decent discussion happened and you asked for thoughts, it seems you just want people to applaud your list to me.
I play a similar list but I run a cryptic in the main and side, it is an answer to things we cannot deal with like keranos just as 1 example. I also like twisted image but that is kind of preference. I think pia and kiran nalaar should just be 1. I could easily be wrong. I like 2 tasigur and 2 angler. I can keep on going but things are just preferences sometimes.
I do agree that jace should be a 4 of. I also think thought scour as 4 of more then serum visions should be. I think feeding 2 to the yard is more important than scrying the same 2 and at instant speed. I am not sure about the terminate number but I knew it was an automatic playset for quite awhile.
November 24, 2015 12:10 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #19
I think the deck can afford to play a Go for the Throat instead of Dismember or the fourth Terminate. The Affinity matchup is good enough, especially since you have 3-4 Kommands and Jace +1 and Bolts and Snaps.
November 24, 2015 12:20 a.m.
Well first off, I'm not fishing for compliments on my deck...it was made as a base list for the discussion. sure I am defending a few choices, as I did afterall make the list with the cards and numbers I felt were mostly correct, and I do in fact play this list, so that's a given, but I'm also agreeing with other comments and will make adjustments for the topic, so your statement was unnecessary. As for the numbers on piakia, tasigurmag, etc, I agree that that is left up a lot to preference to some extent, but the terminate being an auto play of was before master of waves started being a dick lol, so I fet we needed to diversify the removal package, and I like tribute to hunger in the list ever since I've used it to kill goyfs, tasigurmag, and Emrakul ha!
November 24, 2015 12:24 a.m.
zyphermage says... #21
I may of come off strong but don't take it that way. You are probably doing better than I am anyways.
November 24, 2015 12:27 a.m.
I feel ya on the go for the throat, my only thoughts on that are that terminate is better so might as well run that if we are going to drop the dismember, but dismember is cool because it's cheap when we need it to be, and effectively a murder when we don't.
November 24, 2015 12:28 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #23
GftT costs less life against aggro, and even lets you fetch a basic on turn 2 to kill Bob or something. That's the reason to play it as the fourth Terminate.
November 24, 2015 12:30 a.m.
Hey it's not a big deal, and I agree with the general consensus that 4 scours and Jace is probably right, I just don't own the 4th Jace so that's why it's not on my list. And I might be being really biased on the 2 Lilis in the deck because I spent so much damn money on them, I fee like I NEED to use them haha!
November 24, 2015 12:32 a.m.
That's very true and a valid point! I'd probably rather have it in the side though, not sure..ill try it out a bit and see
November 24, 2015 12:34 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #26
So, um, just for future reference the modern forum says "no decklists" in big capital letters.
This post does technically belong in the deck help forum even if you are just using your list as a "this is what I'm talking about".
A better route would have been to link an outside source like top8, goldfish, etc to show the archetype you are referring to.
As for the OP, Grixis is a good deck, for sure. There's a reason it does well. That being said Grixis typically isn't all that flexible, meaning that if you encounter decks that you didn't plan for ahead of time you have a much higher potential to get haymaker-ed. (As opposed to something like amulet bloom and Twin that have a lot more flexibility.)
A lot of control/midrange decks fall into this trap because the soul of control is predicting what your opponents will do. If you don't know you can't stop it easily.
Also, as GlistenerAgent said, the tier system has nothing to do with how powerful a deck is but rather how much it's played. So saying "I'm going to try and bring it back" is sort of a flawed statement. If you said "me and my army (or hulk) are going to bring it back" that's another matter.
Sorry to be a wet blanket :(
November 24, 2015 3:16 a.m.
Grixis midrange always ends up falling onto the control end up the spectrum and looking suspiciously like a control deck because it doesnt have any decent 2-mana creatures it can reliably aggro with. You CAN land a huge threat T2 or T3 if you hit your Thought Scours and fetches but if you dont then you're stuck for a while. This lack of reliability means its more comfortable playing the control game than the aggro game, and as Ohthenoises says it means it's not the most flexible.
November 24, 2015 4:07 a.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #28
But if you run a playset of Bloodghast and 3 Delver of Secrets Flip......
My point is that it's very possible for grixis to be much more flexible, but players just need to branch out more on card choices. Rocket Science (Competitive) is a midrange deck, but it has a fast game plan available. It's pretty impressive when it gets going, actually. Tron is still bad, but it can aggro down control decks and doesn't need to have a full grave and a Tasigur or Angler to have an early game plan.
November 24, 2015 8:22 a.m.
Neither of those two cards are flexible. One of them even says 'can't block'
November 24, 2015 8:46 a.m.
Couple things, first, I spoke with a moderator before posting to verify that it was ok, and at the time I was unaware of the top 8 posting because it was labeled as Grixis "control", so my deck list was necessary, and this post does in fact belong exactly where it is. Second, no where in my post does it say or resemble saying that "I" am bringing it back to tier 1, all it says is that I believe it can be, which I do (though I agree on the subject of tiers being decided by other factors besides power).
Now all that being covered, I'll touch on the flexibility and other things that were mentioned...First, I agree that it's not near as flexible as some other top decks, but I feel like what it has going for it is that it's game 1 against the majority of decks are pretty good, and if we tailor our sideboard mostly for our bad match ups, at the cost of versatility, then we have a good shot against them too. Now, I also agree that maybe Grixis still needs just that 1 more missing piece to help it be more flexible etc, and that it may not be the optimum choice for an unknown meta such as a Grand Prix etc due to its mentioned lack of flex, but it's a GREAT choice for any local metas where you can tailor your sideboard. I know, I know, any deck is better when you know your local meta and can tailor sideboard etc...but this deck like I said has an awesome game 1 (minus burn/hyper aggro), and has a great game against twin and infect which are prevalent LGS decks in most everyone's local shop at some point.
November 24, 2015 12:46 p.m.
Also I just realized I had a "First" but no second follow up lol...oh well
GlistenerAgent says... #2
Grixis Control Top 8'd the most recent Grand Prix.
November 23, 2015 10:10 p.m.