Manabase: Urzatron and Filter Lands versus Lotus fields
Modern forum
Posted on Oct. 26, 2022, 4:03 p.m. by 9-lives
I'm wondering if Lotus Field combo works better or worse than using Urzatron with filter lands? Here's the bare minimum of my manabase with Urzatron:
- 2x Cascading Cataracts
- 2x Painted Bluffs
- 4x Shimmering Grotto
- 4x Unknown Shores
- 4x Urza's Mine
- 4x Urza's Power Plant
- 4x Urza's Tower
- 4x Expedition Map
28 cards total
Here's the bare minimum manabase and cards to make Lotus Fields work:
- 6x Forest
- 4x Island
- 4x Lotus Field
- 2x Temple of Mystery
- 4x Thespian's Stage
- 4x Yavimaya Coast
- 4x Hidden Strings
- 4x Sylvan Scrying
- 4x Vizier of Tumbling Sands
36 cards total
Also, I can use filter lands themselves to make more colored mana. Urzatron with filter is even better. Lotus Fields requires that they are untapped artificially, which seems to giv the urzatron an advantage.
Yes, these two manabases will require a lot of ramping.
wallisface I intended to include the bare minimum. Generally, yes, Sylvan Scrying and Arboreal Grazer are all useful for both manabases.
The problem with Lotus fields that urzatron doesn't have is that you have to start out with nominal lands and then use them to make Lotus Field. This is quite difficult compared to running a few filter lands or even urza with filter. Also, I don't have to untap anything. The worst thing that can happen with Urzatron is that I have to pay for 2 mana colors on one card. Other problems are that I don't have enough urza's lands to build up my colorless mana amount, or don't draw enough filter lands. However, I think it's quite balanced enough for this issue in the very ratios of cards there are.
October 26, 2022 4:51 p.m.
Just some basic math on Urza Lands:
Mine taps for 2 mana. Most filter lands require one mana and then to be tapped to produce one mana. So, you end up tapping three lands to get two mana. That math does not add up - you are getting less out of your lands than the number of lands you are tapping.
Cascading Cataracts seems like adds up - you need three (or four) lands to get five mana - but it ignores the fact you have to have all the Tron lands to make that math work, and at that point you could be tapping there lands for seven mana, so Cataracts actually is putting you behind.
And this ignores the fact that your mana base is going to play in a clunky manner. Want to cast a one-mana spell? Hope you have two lands open. Each removal spell you cast is going to eat through your lands, denying you resources you could have used elsewhere if you just ran regular coloured lands.
October 26, 2022 4:58 p.m.
Caerwyn I know the effect that using filter lands has. I just wonder if using Urzatron can I generate more colored mana than with Lotus fields in their respective manabases and realiably at that? Can I generate it faster? More likely to draw? Less cards devoted to actually making the manabase work? You're really just stating the obvious right now. I'm trying to fit my deck to use at most two colored mana on one card, mostly others being one colored mana or colorless totally.
October 26, 2022 5:06 p.m.
Also, you failed to note that the filter lands by themselves can give extra colorless mana to use one another to generate colored mana.
October 26, 2022 5:08 p.m.
Sometimes the obvious needs to be stated - such as a case where someone makes a mana base that is worse than running Urza’s with shock lands, and seems to think it is viable.
October 26, 2022 5:09 p.m.
You're not comparing the two. I want to know which is more reliable: lotus fields or urzatron with filter, especially if using in MV one colored mana or colorless in all cards in the deck? Urza with shock lands? The entire advantage of my setup is that if I draw enough filter lands while having urzatron, I'll end up having more than enough mana, even if it takes one filter and a mana to generate one 5c mana. And, on top of that, if I want to play cards that use colorless mana, I'll be able to play those as well. Every time I bring up the filter lands, there is always backlash against the idea with the whole 'two for one deal' that they have. If I had a nickel every time i heard that.
October 26, 2022 5:26 p.m.
Well, if you stop posting the same bad idea over and over again, people will stop telling you that it is a bad idea. You might as well be asking "should I even consider wearing swim flippers in a 5k race?" and then getting upset when people point out that you would be better off just using running shoes. Folks pointing out that filter lands are bad is an inevitable side effect of suggesting bad cards--people who want to help you are going to assume you do not realize just how bad they are and are going to explain that they should not be played.
Frankly, I am not super sold on Lotus Field either--if you do not have additional support for it, such as ways to untap it, you are going to be playing a turn behind the turn it drops and your advantage is... being on curve. After all, the turn it comes down would be the turn you can play 3 mana--but you can only use two that turn (your land drop enters tapped). Next turn you have access to four mana, but you would have had access to four mana anyway if you had just played a basic the turn before.
While Lotus Field can get bigger if it has support cards, that means you are spending precious turns in the fast-paced Modern format preparing for a late game that might never come. At that point, you are putting more effort into making your mana work than into winning, which can be somewhat problematic. That is not to say it cannot work--56 Top8 Modern decks ran Lotus Field in the past 2 months... which, considering there were 55,697 Modern Top 8 decks in the same period, means only 0.1% of the best decks ran the card. Pretty good sign that this is not a particularly viable option in the format either.
So, to answer your question of which is better? Going back to the drawing board and not trying to play bad cards.
October 26, 2022 5:47 p.m. Edited.
wallisface says... #10
Playing tronlands with more than 1 colour seems like a really bad idea.
Playing tronlands but requiring more than just those tronlands in play to make any progress seems like a bad idea.
Having a gameplan that expects to get tronlands out, but then not just “win on the spot” by casting some massive colourless creature/planeswalker, seems like a bad idea.
I don’t see how its possible to justify the multicoloured-tronland avenue at all.
If you’re going to do either, keep it simple and stick with Lotus Field. Saying that, your current rendition/implementation of Lotus Field sounds really dubious/inefficient - i’d really suggest doing some googling to see how those decks are typically built.
October 26, 2022 5:53 p.m. Edited.
I'll tell y'all why I'm running this manabase! I am trying to run a modern deck that has at most 1 colored mana per card, unto completely colorless. What is so bad about using this Urzatron and filter lands for that? I can't run any basic lands, considering that I want 5c for all my cards. My deck is a toolbox, so it naturally requires all colors.
October 26, 2022 5:57 p.m.
wallisface says... #12
What you’re wanting doesn’t at all sound realistic or remotely feasible. Are you aware of the sheer impracticality of what you’re trying to do here??
October 26, 2022 6:02 p.m.
Would it be ok if I post a link to my deck here? You can check my profile and see the deck.
October 26, 2022 6:08 p.m.
As wallisface said I think the Tron package is the more efficient of the two. I feel Lotus Field takes too much support to properly set up, and at that point Lotus Combo becomes better.
Coming to Caerwyn objection to negative lands usage, what if you tried the lands that tap for any color, instead of the filter lands? (ie City of Brass, Mana Confluence, Gemstone Mine). You save on that few manas while still having access to every color.
My personal thoughts for a deck with big mana and access to all colors is Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth with fetches. This would give you all the colors naturally (Godless Shrine, Overgrown Tomb, Blood Crypt, Watery Grave), while thinning your deck due to fetches, AND you have all the colors in a feasible way. Triomes give you access to even more colors.
October 26, 2022 6:17 p.m.
See, the problem is not that we do not get it - it is that your proposed solutions are worse than just running Urza’s and Shock Lands. That would give you easy access to lots of colourless mana and the ability to use coloured mana when you need it, without any of the pitfalls of filter lands or without having to build an entire support core around Lotus Field.
That is why you are asking to run in flippers - in trying to be creative, you are being less efficient than the established and well-known systems.
October 26, 2022 6:18 p.m.
wallisface says... #16
I assume you’re referring to this list here?
The problems at the moment are:
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Everything that’s been said about tronlands being a bad way to accomplish this goal hold-true. This deck is going to play incredably clunky.
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71 cards is a lot over the ideal count of 60. This is going to make your deck unwieldily, and mess up the mana base even further.
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Your deck basically can’t do anything at all until you have all the tronlands in play, and a way to make colours from them. That’s a LOT of turns doing nothing, and probably means you’re already lost. Even trying to cast something like Mana Leak looks like a logistical nightmare.
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your mana curve ends at 4-mana, so why are you needlessly complicating all this for yourself. Just play a normal land base!
I don’t mean to be rude, but the deck’s a mess
October 26, 2022 6:22 p.m.
wallisface says... #17
Delphen7 i never said that tron was the better option. Its an option that makes no sense.
October 26, 2022 6:23 p.m.
wallisface My bad, I read "I like tron better".
I still think it's the better of the two though
October 26, 2022 6:26 p.m.
Running in flippers would be pretty pointless, but that depends on if I myself am running in shorter flippers in a race with long flippers. That's why I'm asking if this Filter+Urzatron is better than Lotus Fields in efficiency and color dependence. It's kinda a stretch to compare the two, as obviously lotus fields is for cards that require a lot of mana, but I'm still interested in the general mechanics of both as they apply to using any color for their mana. Also, this is a extremely budgetary option, as it doesn't use a ton of triome/dual/shock/check lands.
October 26, 2022 6:29 p.m.
wallisface says... #20
9-lives any option would be better than the tron list you’ve currently written up. Your current list would be much stronger if you just used basic lands instead of all your existing landbase
October 26, 2022 6:32 p.m.
How about y'all list the advantages of the tron+filter? Haha.
October 26, 2022 6:35 p.m.
If you need to stick to a budget, you could replace Shocks with Pain Lands and that would still be better than Filter Lands.
However, this whole discussion might be moot now that you posted your deck list and I have had an opportunity to review it. Realistically, you are using the wrong tool for your deck - your deck’s curve tops out at four mana, which does not require Tron lands, Lotus untap shenanigans, or really much in the way of ramp. You would be much better off running a regular mana base given how low your curve is.
October 26, 2022 6:37 p.m.
The point is to run tron and filter so that I can play big eldrazi and little aggro. I think my manabase isn't the heretical bastion of evil like everyone makes it out to be.
October 26, 2022 6:43 p.m.
wallisface says... #24
Your “big eldrazi” are 3 and 4 mana respectively. Playing basic lands lets you cast them faster than the current hoops you’re jumping through.
There’s a good reason everyone’s poo-pooing this concept
October 26, 2022 6:52 p.m.
I think it is abundantly clear you do not actually want advice - you just want affirmation for your ideas.
The simple reality is that you are trying to do something established, but in a worse way. You do not want to admit that what you came up with is worse than the common sense solution in every single regard, but them’s the breaks. I think a lot of people here have been genuinely trying to help you see that there is an easier path to your goals (goals which do not even line up with your deck), but you have ignored them, insulted them, and dismissed them.
You might want to reconsider how you respond to individuals who are taking time out of their days to provide you aid - since what you are doing now is inconsiderate at best.
October 26, 2022 6:54 p.m.
I have not insulted or dismissed, nor did I post any deck in this conversation. I have simply remained silent on most of your posts, and have considered what you all have said. I'm not going to gratify you with an argument against, nor am I going to scrap my idea because a few people on the internet said so. I was simply asking 'why not the positives?' because no one is giving any advice that helps. I've noticed that many people on this website often stick to old ideas about what decks should be. Mention toolbox? Get bashed. Mention 5c? Of course you have to run all dual and triomes as usual. No one is giving a single bit of constructive advice; simply telling me my idea is shite.
October 26, 2022 7:06 p.m.
wallisface says... #27
All the discussions here should help you, because they illustrate gaps in your analysis that need to be weighed-up when deckbuilding. Just hearing “the positives” helps nobody better their deck. There have been a LOT of very good/compelling points made here for why your current plan doesn’t work, and these should help you move in the right direction.
Critical advise always “helps”.
Telling a person what they want to hear never “helps”.
There are plenty of strong toolbox and/or 5c decks on this site. The trick for either avenue is understanding how the deck functions and why it works. You can’t just throw a bunch of cards together, put a label on it, and call it a day.
Every single comment people has given here has been “constructive advise”. They’ve not only told you the problems with your plan, but also detailed reasons as to why it won’t work. That’s surely the most valuable kind of advise you can get!
If i tried posting a decklist of 56x Swamp and 4x Progenitus, I would be eternally grateful for being told that my plans were foolish, especially if they explained why, and especially if it were before I made a big-money investment in an idea that wouldn’t work.
October 26, 2022 7:26 p.m.
I've not seen any "bashing" about the toolbox strategy itself, that part seems fine.
Triomes/shocks are played/expensive for a reason. However, now that you've noted that you expressively avoiding them, I'll change my suggestions accordingly. Here's my initial thoughts:
- Crystal Grotto is probably better than Shimmering Grotto because of the scry.
- Prophetic Prism fixes your mana, and replaces itself. Since you aren't playing a whole lot of destroy or target effects, this might be better than Bonds of Mortality, especially since I think neither Indestructible nor Hexproof are seen to often in modern.
- When you've playtested this, how often has the mana fixing from Cascading Cataracts been relevant? I'm thinking Eldrazi Temple might be better because it ramps into your eldrazi faster
- Mark of Asylum is a neat card, but aside from Fury and Lightning Bolt, I can't imagine much use for it. Would a removal spell, like Fatal Push or Path to Exile be better?
October 26, 2022 7:34 p.m.
Thank you, Delphen7. You are kind for responding in this fashion. This is the sort of post that is humane. Not getting stuck on what is 'good or bad' in terms of what other people expect of the player in question, or what fits what archetype, but rather helpful in a way that is in accord with what the player wants.
Yes, Crystal Grotto is even better! Prophetic Prism is excellent for ramp and using my Urzatron mana, considering that I need equal amounts of lands as how much mana I'll be getting from Urzatron, and currently I have lesser.
I like Fatal Push a lot, but I don't know about its 'creature left the battlefield' usage.
Again, many thanks.
wallisface says... #2
So, assuming you’re wanting a lot or coloured mana, these are some thoughts:
Urzatron:
Urza lands are great at making loads of colourless mana, but terrible for providing colours. There’s good odds you’re going to create something really clunky.
Your current package only includes one playset of land-fectching cards (Expedition Map), which is woefully inadequate. Normally tron also needs to include playsets of both Ancient Stirrings and Sylvan Scrying (as well as 8-10 cantrip-artifacts) to reliably get tron online in any kind if timely matter.
Added to the stresses of getting Tron online, you’ve compounded the issue by needing coloured mana, meaning you’ll still need to fetch up the lands that provide that. You’ve created a LOT of unnecessary hoops to jump through, imo.
Lotus Field:
Like the tron package, i’m not sure you’re running enough ways to get the Lotus Field. Without that card in play, it really feels like your deck will be doing a lot of nothing. It might be instead that you just need to go less all-in on assuming you’ll draw that land early, however (i.e ditch the gimicky untap effects).
Your package really should be including a playset of Blood Sun, so that you can benefit from not having to deal with Lotus Field’s sacrifice trigger.
October 26, 2022 4:39 p.m.