Mardu Discussion
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 7, 2015, 5:26 p.m. by VampireArmy
No this isn't my asking for help on my deck. No decklists posted here unless in direct reference to the discussion (I.E. if you need to prove a situation that X card is worth running)
With that out of the way, what do we know about RWB?
We know it does aggro (not to be confused with burn)
We know it does Midrange
We know it can do control
Our underlying problem
We lack Tarmogoyf : A cheap beat stick with insane defense stats as well.
We lack Abrupt Decay / Maelstrom Pulse : two of the most efficient destruction spells ever printed.
So how do you see us contending with the new meta?
What can we do to earn our place at the Tier table?
dragon_slayer says... #2
What do you guys think about Pack Rat? It has synergy with Lingering Souls and is just good overall if it can survive.
Also, with lots of fetches, what about Grim Lavamancer?
And if B/G/x decks establish themselves as the top decks, maybe Mirran Crusader could find a spot in the maindeck.
Tidehollow Sculler seems like it has potential.
February 8, 2015 7:57 a.m.
I'm gonna go ahead and state that I think we don't want Lily, at least not in the mainboard. Having her against any G/B/x deck is a half dead draw. You get to make them sac a creature, and that's it. Letting them discard a card of their choice to feed their goyf's is just bad in my opinion.
From watching the Modern Pro Tour going on, Burn and Abzan both seem like they are two of the three or four best decks in the format currently. Lily isn't great against either of these match ups. Also, I think we're going to want 2-3 Kor Firewalker's in the side board.
Amulet combo also did very well. Maybe four people showed up with it, one made top eight and sam black made ninth or something (guessing since it isn't over yet). That's a large percentage. The deck's explosive and we might need sideboard tech if it picks up in popularity.
February 8, 2015 12:22 p.m.
To add to my previous post, we might even just want a playset of Kor Firewalker in the sideboard. We have our own red spells to feed it as well, and having four sideboard slots dedicated to dominating the burn matchup seems reasonable.
February 8, 2015 12:27 p.m.
Twin also made it to the top eight so a full playset of thoughtseize something in the deck seems good.
February 8, 2015 12:29 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #6
I dunno she did a lot of work for me on testing last night. G1 vs the mirror is a tough one. G2 we get Rest in Peace which nerfs the hell out of goyfs when played in tandem with the discard. I do also love Kor Firewalker. Pre TC ban, I ran 3 mainboard to get around all the burn and such. If you're going aggressive then it may be a thing for you. for Bloom titan, keep 2 Slaughter Games in your Side and hope your discard game is strong enough to stall you into getting what you need.
February 8, 2015 12:31 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #7
I concur with kyuuri117 about Liliana of the Veil. While generally a good card I don't think it's the right card for the mainboard. Feeding Goyf will give us no end to the trouble we're going to encounter against an Abzan deck, or any 
deck for that matter. I also feel that Lily does not provide any justified advantage in Mardu within the current meta. Her -2 may as well be Crackling Doom.
To deal with Amulet I strongly advise Blood Moon. Most of the mana base of that deck is nonbasic. I also feel that Blood Moon is well positioned to punish a variety of other decks in the current meta.
February 8, 2015 12:36 p.m.
As yet another follow up, the abzan deck that made top eight's game plan is to stuff 4 Loxodon Smiter and 4 Wilt-Leaf Liege's in the mainboard. They dump everything in their hand on the table, and hold all of the "put into play if discarded" creatures in their hand. So yea, you definitely don't want lily against Abzan decks.
February 8, 2015 12:49 p.m.
Well maybe it's not 4 and 4 in the main, haven't seen the list, but that's what the commentators made it sound like.
February 8, 2015 12:52 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #10
oh dear. well that I wasn't aware of.
That does present issues. At least our deck can metamorph (pun intended) i'm not sure what I'll switch to in that case as my deck is a lot more grindy
February 8, 2015 12:52 p.m.
Alright as of right now, the quarterfinals are done. The semi's are gonna be between Abzan and Bloom, and UR Twin vs UR Twin.
February 8, 2015 1 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #13
So we're mainboarding Mirran Crusader over lili then?
February 8, 2015 1:15 p.m.
dragon_slayer says... #14
Would that mean cutting Liliana altogether, or just sideboarding her?
February 8, 2015 1:20 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #15
I mean, Lili's still fine. It's just that particular deck you have to be a little worried about.
February 8, 2015 1:20 p.m.
Maybe. The abzan list that was in the quarters that got eliminated by twin was heavy W/G splashing black for rhino and maybe something else. Haven't seen the other list yet. But yea, Mirran Crusader seems decent. Depends on how many bolts vs paths vs abrupt decays are gonna be in the format.
February 8, 2015 1:21 p.m.
Well I think she's a sideboard card. You don't want her vs twin, that abzan list, burn or that Titan Bloom deck. And that's what made the top 8.
February 8, 2015 1:22 p.m.
Just showed the abzan list in the top 4. It's pretty much what you'd expect. 4 lili, 4 thoughtseize, 2 ooze, 4 goyf, 4 rhino, 2 tasigur, some decays, 1 mael puse, some paths, and some other stuff.
February 8, 2015 1:28 p.m.
dragon_slayer says... #19
What do you guys think about Tidehollow Sculler? It doesn't feed Goyf, and gets around Wilt-Leaf Liege and Loxodon Smiter. However, it is vulnerable to removal.
February 8, 2015 1:35 p.m.
It might be good. On the other hand, if it dies, it adds both creature and artifact to the yard.
February 8, 2015 1:59 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #21
Yeah i'm just gonna stick with liliana and accept that game one will be very bad for the mirror sometimes. I think we can power through it.
February 8, 2015 2:01 p.m.
dragon_slayer says... #22
That's very true, kyuuri117. What do you think about Grim Lavamancer or Pack Rat?
February 8, 2015 2:44 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #23
Pack rat is good. I've seen people use it to win the top deck war. If you're adding rat, add mutavault.
Imo grim lavamancer might be too slow but the team italia version originally used it
February 8, 2015 2:48 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #25
Not a ton. You only run about two. The advantage of having huge rats is sweet. Run 1 urborg too
February 8, 2015 2:53 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #26
I'm going to stick it out with my token focus. Maybe we can throw something together on cockatrice or the one website (I forget the name) and assess the strengths and weaknesses of each deck.
February 8, 2015 2:58 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #27
I don't think tokens is the way to go. As far as tokens are concerned, BW is the strongest. Having a midrange deck which is faster/stronger than Abzan is very important, so you need to test that matchup a lot.
February 9, 2015 3:34 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #28
@ JexInfinite it isn't a pure token approach, but I see little alternative with Mardu colours. We know for a fact that Abzan will out grind Mardu at an attrition game. Liliana of the Veil is just asking for trouble. So, as it stands Mardu can only hope to out race an Abzan deck while still relying on some attrition mechanics. My thinking is just to hit harder and to keep Abzan out of reach. Hence why I'm leaning toward Sorin, Solemn Visitor for my deck.
February 9, 2015 8:31 a.m.
I would consider Lingering Souls and Sorin, Solemn Visitor to be value plays more than dedicated token plays, and im a fan of both. CanadianShinobi, are you running any other token producers, or anthems? Im still working out my early drops, just gathering raw ideas.
February 9, 2015 2:30 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #30
@ Twanicus if you check on page 2 I've posted a decklist for reference purposes to aid our discussion. I forget the name of VampireArmy's deck, but it can be found on his profile.
February 9, 2015 5:33 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #31
My deck I guess since it was mentioned He Who Makes A Beast Out Of Himself...
February 9, 2015 10:46 p.m.
Thanks, ive poured over both lists for a while now (added upvotes, seemed appropriate) and i think ima go with a more 'superfriends' approach. This friday is modern week at my lgs, ill post list and results afterwards.
February 10, 2015 12:42 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #33
@ Twanicus I look forward to seeing your results.
February 10, 2015 2:35 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #34
So we have :
Grindy Midrange
Token Midrange
Planeswalker Control
Not bad at all. I hope more people see this deck in professional play honestly. I think we have what it takes by being resilient to meta but here's what I've gathered. There is no correct way to build this deck. It takes an assessment of the meta you're building for to work and that's going to turn off a lot of people however, in everyone's opinion what is the strict core to this deck? These are cards you must play no matter which meta you're focusing on.
I'd say
Butcher of the horde at 3-4
Bob at 3-4
What else?
February 10, 2015 4:03 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #36
I would also say that 4x Lingering Souls is key component to the Mardu Midrange decks since it offers so much value.
February 10, 2015 7:50 p.m.
The way I think this needs to be looked at is like this.
Red - usually focuses on either A) fast creature decks, B) burn, C) sometimes BIg Red Midrange.
White - Focuses on tokens / control spells
Black - Focuses on advantage at the cost of life. Sometimes has aggro, but usually is control / midrange.
Then we look at the dual color combinations:
Boros - Hit them quick and hard. Use burn and combat tricks to close out the game.
Rakdos - Hit them quick and hard. Use efficient hand disruption, efficient removal, and burn to help close out the game.
Orzhov - Slower than the other two, usually midrangey control, can be aggro. Uses life to gain card advantage and has effecient hand disruption and removal.
Now, our general strengths are - Tokens, cheap, efficient removal, hand disruption. Maybe combat tricks.
We do NOT have access to Abrupt Decay. This hurts, as it's the most efficient removal in the format. But, we do have access to some awesome token generating effects, effects that help tokens, and awesome hand disruption.
I think we need to figure out what the best cards are in the format, that cater to the above, and go with that. Abzan was a whopping TWENTY EIGHT PERCENT of the field in the pro tour. Burn and Twin only made it to the top eight solely because the Abzan decks were more worried about out Abzaning each other, than dealing with Burn or Combo. With a few tweaks, Burn and Twin won't even be able to compete either.
So, we've acknowledged that we can not out grind Abzan. This is a fact. Another fact, is that Modern is the worst format for a control deck. There are too many things to answer, and they all require specific answers, not general answers. This makes control barely viable, and I don't think we want to go that way. I don't remember which pro stated this, but it's completely true: "Modern is all about asking questions with threats on the board, and not about presenting answers". Eventually they run out of the correct answer, and you win.
So. This leaves us with either an aggro token strategy, or a midrange deck that runs four Skullcrack mainboard to deal with the Lightning Rhino menace.
Hope this analysis helps. Brew away.
February 10, 2015 8:05 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #38
In my experience, we CAN out grind them with enough removal and stalling. The rhino does Fuck us up... a lot and this is more to do with trample than its etb. They have higher toughness in almost every creature but ultimately I've found our spells to be more diverse. Not to mention we do get access to the best walkers, removal, and meta hating cards in modern. Our strength is going to be in our power to adapt to new metas.
February 10, 2015 8:19 p.m.
Well, by the time the Rhino comes out, they already have four lands and Path to Exile doesn't help them much. I think Path is going to have to be an auto 4 of in each deck just to deal with it. But 4 path's for 4 Goyf's and 4 Rhino's is not enough. Need to find another removal that deals with them both. Neither bolt nor Helix can consistently deal with those two.
February 10, 2015 8:30 p.m.
Remember, unless an instant is already in the graveyard, if Goyf is at 2/3, Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix cannot kill Goyf. You use it, it deals damage, and it goes to the graveyard. Goyf registers and getting another card in the gy as a state based action and lives with 3 damage on it.
February 10, 2015 8:32 p.m.
I think that's better. 4 Path, 4 bolt, 4 terminate, or whatever.
February 10, 2015 8:42 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #44
I advocate for crackling doom if you're worried about goyfs and rhino. Chances are it will be the largest thing on the table anyways. Doesn't exactly suck vs control since hits manlands too. Terminate Feels okay as well.
February 10, 2015 9:02 p.m.
Crackling Doom's biggest advantage over Terminate is that it kills deals with indestructable/regenerate cards (of which I can only think of Thrun), and it can potentially nail a creature AND liliana in the same turn. Otherwise, having Terminate cost one less is probably better considering Rhino and Goyf can't regen. Though running both could also be right.
February 10, 2015 9:18 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #46
I advocate a strategy of running 2x Crackling Doom and 2x Terminate.
February 10, 2015 10:29 p.m.
Ok, sorry for the wait. Took my brew to its first (smallish) FNM.
Mardu Superfriends Playtest
Modern
SCORE: 0 | 0 COMMENTS | 4 VIEWSMatch 1: Mono green Ramp. 2-0. Strange brew meant to ramp into fatties and eldrazi. Hand hate slowed him way down, spot removal hit what he did get out. Not much went his way.
Match 2: Selensya Aggro. 2-1. Straight forward stompy deck with watchwolves and loxy smiters curving into advent of the wurm. My life gain helped a lot. The loss was due to a timely reclamation sage hitting my tidehollow sculler, loosing a 5/5 wurm. Ajani is a nice meat shield when he starts getting closer to that ult.
Match 3: Abzan Tokens. 2-1. Played like the last deck except a little more resilient to spot removal. Game one drew 14 f***ing lands in a row after opening hand, yet made it to turn 16 with batterskull Lol. Next two games were grindy, but value from walkers and lifegain to stabilize won it out.
TL;DR Deck has promise, continued testing and FNM play required before taking it to a ptq.
March 1, 2015 1:11 a.m.
I've come to a new mindset about modern. Whenever someone pulls out a modern combo deck and asks if I want to play I say sure. I pull out my legacy elves deck, shuffle up, present and draw. When they get confused, I just look them in the eyes and say "this is how your opponent feels the majority of the time. Deal with it."
And hell, Elves doesn't always win turn three. They've still got a chance. No remorse.
Twanicus says... #1
I agree that lifegain shouldnt be sought after for its own sake, and ascendant is prolly out of place here. But having life gain as a by product give us that much more edge versus burn and sligh. Im gonna test out Seeker of the Way next friday in my build, see if prowess can keep the pressure up. ~prays for seeker fnm promo soon~
February 7, 2015 11:18 p.m.