Mardu Discussion
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 7, 2015, 5:26 p.m. by VampireArmy
No this isn't my asking for help on my deck. No decklists posted here unless in direct reference to the discussion (I.E. if you need to prove a situation that X card is worth running)
With that out of the way, what do we know about RWB?
We know it does aggro (not to be confused with burn)
We know it does Midrange
We know it can do control
Our underlying problem
We lack Tarmogoyf : A cheap beat stick with insane defense stats as well.
We lack Abrupt Decay / Maelstrom Pulse : two of the most efficient destruction spells ever printed.
So how do you see us contending with the new meta?
What can we do to earn our place at the Tier table?
I'm just not a fan of where modern is at right now and where it's heading. Every single tier 2, 1.5 and 1 deck in the format, besides abzan, is a combo deck of some sort. Infect is combo, burn is combo, storm is combo, tron is combo, affinity is combo, twin is combo, the list goes on and on. And I don't have a problem with combo. I don't. Hell, my legacy deck is a combo deck. But modern's just gotten to the point where the entire format, minus one boogyrhino, is combo. And that just doesn't scream "fun and healthy format".
I guess it doesn't have much to do with creating a good Mardu deck list. Just wanted to complain a bit about the modern format in general I guess. I would love for a Mardu aggro deck list to be tier two or 1.5 or whatever. However, I think the biggest thing it has going for it at the moment is that no one's expecting or side boarding against it because it's a brew. That isn't something to dismiss, but it isn't a permanent advantage. If it gets big in your local shop, it can be hated out pretty easily by the combo decks. If it gets big in general, same thing on a wider scale.
Just unhappy that there's an entire format rotating around combo and you are playing Russian Roulette with your sideboard when you sleeve up and go to a tournament.
March 1, 2015 1:49 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #3
This deck packs the absolute best sideboard in the format. There isn't a single thing we can't sideboard for. I think that's our greatest strength. Another is with very little changes you can go between Aggro-Midrange-Control really easily as long as you own all the peices
March 1, 2015 1:52 a.m.
Hey, speaking of sideboard... Im thinking of replacing Anger of the Gods with Wrath of God since anger doesnt hit Siege Rhino or Loxodon Smiter. The hesitation comes in against Voice of Resurgence and Kitchen Finks, and all four are Abzan staples. Thoughts?
March 1, 2015 2:13 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #5
depends on how bad you need to kill everything
I would just save Path to Exile game one. Game two you could always board in some Combust to deal with rhino. Acts as more paths?
March 1, 2015 2:29 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #6
kyuuri117 you'll have to explain how Tron, Infect, Burn and Affinity are combo decks. Because... in my experience none of those decks are combo decks. A combo deck is something like Scapeshift or, yes Storm.
March 1, 2015 11:12 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #7
More or less, you've got it backwards. Scapeshift is a control deck. Infect is a combo deck in that it wants to kill you quickly by doing unfair things. Tron wants to do unfair things. Burn kills on turn 3-4, faster than some combo decks (this is the most stretchy of a definition). Affinity is most certainly a combo deck because it does unfair things and kills faster than most combo decks.
Aggro and midrange decks are inherently fair. None of those four decks are particularly fair save for Burn.
March 1, 2015 11:14 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #8
GlistenerAgent That or we are using inherently different definitions of the word combo.
Scapeshift is a combo-control deck. It wins by utilizing Scapeshift in tandem with Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle to deal lethal damage to an opponent.
Twin is a combo deck. It uses the interaction of Splinter Twin and something like Pestermite to make multiple copies of a creature to deal lethal damage.
Affinity, Infect and Burn are all Aggro decks. They use the synergy of various cards within the deck to win quickly and effectively. There are no set pieces which allow them to win like my previous examples. They win by having the deck work as a cohesive whole. Now, how would you define a combo?
March 1, 2015 11:25 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #9
It's a matter of how the deck is piloted. Scapeshift is not piloted like a combo deck, it's piloted like a control deck with a different win condition. Kiki-Control is still a control deck, correct?
Splinter Twin is a combo-control deck, but in reality it wins without the combo in a vast majority of its games. Most Twin players will tell you that Twin is the worst card in the deck, and many sideboard 2+ out in several matchups. It is a combo deck if you define a combo deck as a deck with a game-winning combination in it, but if you define it by playstyle it's a control/tempo deck at heart.
Affinity is a combo deck. The cards in the deck all contribute to killing your opponent as fast as possible, but the speed with which Affinity does so as well as the explosiveness afforded by Cranial Plating, Master of Etherium and Arcbound Ravager make it a more combo-oriented deck, at least in my opinion.
Infect is most certainly a combo deck. Its speed combined with a relative fragility make it so. Explosiveness is also a huge factor that contributes to it feeling like a combo deck when one plays both with and against it.
As I said, Burn is the most shaky to be defined as combo deck. I call it that because it wins at least as quickly as other combo decks, but one could call it either way.
March 1, 2015 11:32 a.m.
A "combo" deck doesn't have to have some cute interaction between cards to be labeled as such. A combo deck is any deck that wants to ignore any interaction with your opponent, and can reliably do so most games. With a good hand, they just kill you, ignoring everything you do. They just follow their game plan , with little divergence between games. And while aggro decks would like to do this as well, it's the fact that these decks can reliably do just that that makes them combo. Yes , burn and affinity included.
March 1, 2015 12:18 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #12
To be honest by definition combo needs to have some cute interaction. For this reason i don't believe burn can be considered combo. It's just packing lightning bolts x how many it can jam with a few others that disrupt Whereas affinity usually has the combo of unblockable guy plus cranial plating. Decks are most often defined by win condition in competitive play. That's why towards the end angel pod was considered a midrange Deck more than a combo deck
March 1, 2015 12:24 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #13
So we have two more cool things to play with
Thunderbreak Regent and Boltwing Marauder. Thoughts on these in modern?
March 3, 2015 3:55 p.m.
Thunderbreak plays well with lingering souls and tokens in general, but five drops are slow in modern and rule out dark confidant. Boltwing seems weaker than bladehold. Not bad either one, but nothing exciting imo.
March 4, 2015 12:07 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #15
I like Thunderbreak in that it has flying but boltwing flat out can't be in. 5 mana 5/4 is just worse than butcher. I've even dropped butcher for his inability to close out games. I'm testing thunderbreak as a 3-of alongside 2-of bladehold though
Another note here being Brimaz being legendary just sucks. Boros Reckoner anyone?
March 4, 2015 12:11 a.m.
I love mardu. I'm experimenting now with an aristocrat build that uses Falkenrath Aristocrat in combination with Doomed Traveler, Pack Rat, Lingering Souls, and Blood Artist. I really like falkenrath because of the haste, and with the token/small creature theme there is usually a creature on the board for me to save it with.
March 4, 2015 12:55 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #17
That's a thing that's gaining popularity. I played that deck for a very long time. (As a lot of users that know me here will tell you)
It's a fun synergy based aggro deck.
March 4, 2015 1:03 a.m.
I agree, it will never be good enough to be teir 1, but I think it can put up fine results at a competitive fnm level.
March 4, 2015 1:34 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #19
kintighd meaning mardu in general or aristocrats? I assure you I'm going to bust this deck into tier 1 someday
March 4, 2015 1:37 a.m.
Aristocrats. Look at finishers with haste. That is one advantage a red splash has over green.
March 4, 2015 1:42 a.m.
Tried to find a primer or some decks in this archtype on mtgtop8... I had no idea you were on a such a savage frontier dude.. o.o
March 4, 2015 9:03 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #23
The Only "Primer" I could ever find
I reference it occasionally but it's not exactly a legit thing and no one maintains the actual primer part
March 4, 2015 9:50 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #25
Iiiiiiiit's pretty old :3 but still populated with commenters so that's good haha
March 4, 2015 10:10 p.m.
Man I cant help but chase synergies.. thats why I deleted my list.. >.< Mardu is missing half what it needs to be goodstuff.dek..
March 4, 2015 11:21 p.m.
Tidehollow Sculler and Mirran Crusader seems to be what wizards wants us to play with.. for lack of better options.. and they arent that great as is..
Too bad Mirran Crusader is only good vs Abzan.. Burn will laugh and any other red deck that runs bolts...
Ill have to playtest and see if my list is even worthy of its 3 Liliana of the Veil price tag. :P
Otherwise, they better give us something good in the last few spoilers. >.< (Doubt overwhelming)
March 5, 2015 12:29 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #28
So! Two things
March 5, 2015 12:29 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #30
Never in the same list with Bob. Otherwise in slower grinder decks he works well.
Run him in you see a lot souls on the other side
March 5, 2015 4:06 p.m.
How high is it "safe" to curve with bob? Are five 4-drops too many in a 3 bob build? How much does incidental life gain (seeker of the way, lightning helix, sorin 3.0, ajani v) offset that in your opinion? I just picked up 2 confidants and looking for some experienced insight.
March 7, 2015 11:33 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #32
Normally you want to keep 5 drops to one or two tops and they better be worth losing 5 life over or you will have killed yourself while playing with ol bob. 4 drops are generlly best kept low as well but you could make cases for running anywhere between 4-6. I've found ajani vengeant to be a prime 4 drop along with for sure hero of bladehold but you should really only need 2of. Max either anyways. Remember our deck is very meta friendly so it may be correct to change your list often to adapt. This is something i am currently testing myself
March 7, 2015 11:40 p.m.
Tomazinhal says... #33
Hey everyone, I'm a fellow Mardu player for quite some time now. And came across VampireArmy's page and his link to this discussion. I'm currently building a midrange build, the most common one I fear. The deck is based on tokens, coming from Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor. Using these to apply pressure and buy some time, with the help of all our known removal suite (Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Path to Exile, Terminate, Thoughtseize, and so forth...). And attempting to finish the enemy off with Falkenrath Aristocrat. A card I think is very overlooked in most midrange builds. The card can feed itself off Bob, to cut off the lifeloss, and all the tokens. Alongside Thundermaw Hellkite and Pack Rats. The deck can usually handle itself.
What I'm trying to say is, if it has not already been said, that tokens is a good way to go, with the help of some big finishers.
TL;DR: Tokens sounds like a viable midrange option with the help of Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer and Pack Rat.
March 9, 2015 7:13 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #34
Butcher is much better. If you have not tried it you should. Lifelink and vigilance are game winners
March 9, 2015 7:19 p.m.
Tomazinhal says... #35
There is this new card to deal with the abzan powerful creatures: Self-Inflicted Wound.
Might be worth a shot.
March 10, 2015 8:14 a.m.
Tomazinhal says... #36
Hey VampireArmy, I saw the card you where talking about: Ojutai Exemplars. It can avoid removal and used to gain life which is very important.
Do you think it will be replacing/could replace Butcher of the Horde?
March 10, 2015 6:58 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #37
Nah it feels win more. If anything I've found Hero of Bladehold to be better. I've actually constructed the best i could do with these colors. I may write up a primer to help people out but the golden rule of this deck is play what feels the best.
March 10, 2015 7:03 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #39
Could very well see sideboard play if you need to against the littlekid version of abzan. He exiles rather than discards
March 10, 2015 9:20 p.m.
Tomazinhal says... #40
What do you mean littlekid version? Can't most creatures against certain matchups be played in builds with Rats or Lilis? Since if they become obsolete vs a certain deck you can just discard.
March 10, 2015 9:28 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #41
Sometimes but you shouldn't rely on that because the other deck is probably going to try and stop you from getting value like that
Little kid uses Loxodon Smiter and stuff like that. It's an aggro version of the abzan midrange deck. Discard is bad against them
March 10, 2015 9:35 p.m.
Chadtherest00 says... #42
There's a good amount of fillers for mardu
You have access to
A good amount a killswitches just missing a good monster line up. But yeah I think Butcher of the Horde + Bloodsoaked Champion could be a thing in modern
March 11, 2015 9:05 p.m.
selesvyaloverer8 says... #43
too slow Path to Exile=done. you need more resilient or efficient threats like Batterskull or Tarmogoyf
March 11, 2015 9:17 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #44
Eh I could see chads point of view as to how it could become a thing. I mean are people even looking at the aggro aspects of the deck? Like why not tech Bloodsoaked Champion and surround him by bards like Monastery Swiftspear to put some threats on the board earlier than most modern decks. Ive seen a few tourneys where they don't start utilizing the board until turn 3. Could see it working Chadtherest00 but seles is more less right Path to Exile = exile
March 11, 2015 10:21 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #46
I probably need to use it in my build. He's literally on par with thundernaw. The pro white can help a lot and going monsterous can seal a game out if you can get there
March 11, 2015 10:25 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #47
Ugh only think I hate bout the nonstrosity is the fact that the guy never has enough cards for you to burn for game. Lol I've always played storm n the guy ends up telling me oh I only have 3 cards. Enough to kick my ass next turn not enough for me to kill him from 10.... Great...
Anyways I was kinda thinking that some of you guys should get into Chained to the Rocks it's leaving the block in about 4-5 months maybe it could find a good place in modern. I mean low costing spells and removal are what make modern...
March 11, 2015 10:31 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #48
Nah too conditional. Stance or path are our great options
March 11, 2015 10:34 p.m.
My issue with Chained to the Rocks is the amount of land hate modern packs. People pack hate for tron and man lands main deck, and youre setting yourself up for nasty 2 for 1.
March 11, 2015 10:39 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #50
YEah this is true I do see a lot of deck lists with at least one land hate card ghostly something I forget it's name. But I can still see it happening bullshit aside also there's this other card that costs just as much as Path to Exile and I was wondering how come people don't use that instead. I know path is good but giving them one extra land to work with sucks for decks with counter spells that make you (unless your oppenent pays (3)) kinda sucks
VampireArmy says... #1
PSA : Any meta with Sigarda and us aggro guys are FUCKED I have to pack Wrath of God now ;c
Also why do you say that? (the legacy thing)
March 1, 2015 1:28 a.m.