Midrange in Modern...
Modern forum
Posted on Sept. 7, 2013, 1:40 a.m. by Alarox
How well does it work? How hard will aggro decks be pushing you? By what turn should I have solidified my card advantage?
I'm asking this since I've been playing casually for a while but I'm interested in playing competitively, and Modern seems like the best option.
However, my deck designs tend to be midrange rather than clear cut aggro/control. I'm just wondering what a midrange deck should be expected to handle relative to an aggro deck or a combo deck.
Basically, how long does a midrange deck have to gain field control before aggro drops them to zero or a combo/ramp deck kicks in?
Slycne That's the kind of information I was looking for.
I try to use a few spells like Pacifism Doomblade and Midnight Charm for disruption while I build up, along with some life gain. I guess it seems like surviving this will be on a case by case basis and I should be able to delay them for 2-3 turns at least.
Follow up question: Is turn 8 too long to wait to gain absolute dominance? At turn 8 my deck has been able to produce a collective 29 +1/+1 counters along with a Fungal Behemoth ... so at that point I basically win. Although that's kind of pointless if I lose on turn 6 from a decent combo.
September 7, 2013 2:17 a.m.
A lot of it will depend on how exactly you're spending those first several turns. There's plenty of control decks in modern that are able to drag the game along with removal, permission, hand disruption or creatures like Kitchen Finks . Just cause they look to kill with things like Celestial Colonnade doesn't mean you couldn't run another win-con.
September 7, 2013 2:34 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #5
@ Alarox
If you run blue at all Mana Leak is a great card to stall out combos and aggro. Running white affords you Timely Reinforcements and Leyline of Sanctity . Your best bet would be to study some mid-range decks on the site and see what you'd like to play the most. There are a lot of options for stalling early and as the game wears on. However, if you do play mid-range, I'd recommend control, but that's my personal bias. :D
September 7, 2013 2:57 a.m.
You have to consider that Midrange isn't about playing large creatures, Midrange is a control deck with an aggro win condition. Aggro decks typically run removal so they can push damage through. Midrange runs removal and disruption so it can stabilize and establish itself in a position where it can't lose.
Jund and Tron are the two main Midrange decks in Modern. Meliria Pod is on the combo side of Midrange and can grind out lots of value with its creatures.
September 7, 2013 6:24 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #7
"You have to consider that Midrange isn't about playing large creatures, Midrange is a control deck with an aggro win condition."
Not to split hairs, but this isn't necessarily true if you play Esper Gifts. I'm sure I could think of another example, but I run Gifts so it's the only thing I can think of. :\
September 8, 2013 1:54 a.m.
@CanadianSamurai: That's because Esper Gifts is combo-control. Once Gifts Ungiven resolves into Unburial Rites , you pretty much win. Yeah, sure, you have to attack a few times with Iona, Shield of Emeria , but not in the way Jund attacks with Dark Confidant starting on turn three or sooner.
September 8, 2013 3:15 a.m.
HarbingerJK says... #9
@sylvannos a control deck with an aggro win con is an aggro-control deck. You might be thinking of boardwipes in the early game. If you're running blue then yes absolutely it will be a control deck. But it's hard to make a blue deck without a control element. But most midrange decks are not going to run blue.
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Midrange_deck
September 8, 2013 9:43 p.m.
It's pretty easy to get into semantics, and honestly, it's not that meaningful. Especially in Modern, much more than in Standard, there are a lot of very blurry lines between classifications.
No midrange deck in this format can win without some control elements, because it'll just roll over to combo. But that doesn't make me think that every midrange deck is an aggro-control deck. I think Jund is classic midrange. I think the non-combo part of Melira Pod (which wins a half to three quarters of its games) is classic midrange. Both of these use relatively small creatures, an aggro staple, along with cards meant to disrupt the opponent, a control staple. But they're neither aggro nor control.
A warning to OP: Slycne is absolutely right, but the answers you have are not necessarily the best ones. Pacifism isn't instant speed, and many of the combos you see are instant speed. Splinter Twin and both Pod decks can look completely harmless at the moment you say "pass turn" and then just win before you ever get another chance to cast sorcery-speed spells. Midnight Charm can't do much against an infinite number of Deceiver Exarch s, and the Melira Pod combo doesn't care whether its creatures are tapped. What you're looking for is Path to Exile , Dismember , and Abrupt Decay , mostly.
Hand disruption is also key because there are non-creature combos too, like in Scapeshift and Storm. If you want to survive until turn 8...and there are decks that can...then you need to have answers to a lot of different things. This is what makes control tough in this format.
The only aggro matchup you're likely to need to take care of is Affinity, and if you're really having a problem with that, there are numerous cards to hate it out.
September 9, 2013 8:54 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #11
By definition, modern Jund is a midrange deck. You gain a card advantage through Dark Confidant , mana advantage with Deathrite Shaman and disrupt the opposing player's hand with Thoughtseize , Inquisition of Kozilek and Liliana of the Veil , then smack them in the face with undercosted/overpowered beaters like Tarmogoyf and Huntmaster of the Fells Flip .
September 9, 2013 9:48 p.m.
if you want to go midrange you need to protect against early combos.
for example birthing pod can turn 1-3, seer / merlira / finks. infinite life
splinter twin will turn 3 flash in exarch or pestermite then splinter twin on their 4th turn to win.
gifts ungiven at end of your turn 4...choosing a bomb + unburial rites is popular too.
etc
September 12, 2013 5:08 p.m.
I think there are more aggro decks in the format than just affinity . Namely, I know of a lot of mono blue or blue/white merfolk aggro players, and merfolk are possibly the most dangerous tribal decks because they have 2 different lords that are only 2 mana (as opposed to Goblins and Elves, whose lords are normally at 3 mana). I'm not sure what colors you are running, but for most color combinations, there are good planeswalkers, such as Liliana of the Veil , Sorin, Lord of Innistrad , and Garruk Relentless Flip that are great for sustaining midrange decks against more hard-core control decks (by continuing to give you creatures/threats long term) and, moreover, most of them have control-esque abilities to stall/disrupt the opponent, like the aforementioned Liliana's +1 and -2 (which is why she's considered one of the best planeswalkers in the format). I'm not sure what kind of deck you're running, so I'm not sure what other advice I could give you.
September 12, 2013 5:38 p.m.
The format is pretty hostile to Merfolk decks though, as there are a lot of commonly played cards that can kill a lord mid-combat and set up advantageous blocks which give the defender a 2-for-1 or better. Between Merfolk not having the Force of Will and Daze from Legacy being available as free counters and Abrupt Decay being a card, it doesn't have a lot of defense against this and is subject to serious blowouts staggeringly commonly.
Domain Zoo and GR Aggro are also viable aggro strategies, but like Merfolk they're fringe at best. It might be good to keep in mind that aggro can exist, but 90% of the time you see it (not accounting for local metagames), it'll be Affinity.
Mostly what you have to worry about as midrange is combo. Control matchups tend to already be pretty decent.
Slycne says... #2
Modern is often talked about as a Turn 4 format. It's not really the aggro decks you have to worry about so much, but the combo decks should be able to fairly regularly kill on T4 if you lack interaction.
That said, there are a fair number of decks in the meta that some would consider to be midrange. The key is just to play enough disruption so you arn't just dying to stuff like Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin on T4.
September 7, 2013 1:51 a.m.