Modern shouldnt have a ban list. Change my mind.
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 19, 2019, 12:54 p.m. by Icbrgr
Admittedly there are some very powerful (and annoying) cards on the Modern ban list such as Deathrite Shaman , Sensei's Divining Top , Chrome Mox ect ect. But do these cards printed from 8th Edition onward (excluding duel deck/UNsets ect) really make the game/format unplayable?
A few weeks back I saw a thread talking about Splinter Twin / Birthing Pod aand honestly just read a lot of commentary that i thought made a pretty convincing case for why they should be unbanned.... The commentary got me curious to look into what the banned list for modern really looks like....and it got me wondering...
Why are these cards banned? and could their be a compromise in the format by changing banned cards to restricted (you can only have one of them in your main deck and sideboard combined)?.... or is the possibility of one copy of Mental Misstep in anyone's deck just too much for the format to handle?
In case anyone wants to see whats Banned in Modern.
according to Brian Braun-Duin analysis it would be jeskai miracles.... essentially splash red for Blood Moon and have Ensnaring Bridge at the ready?
February 20, 2019 11:37 a.m.
Also, Chalice of the Void is partially the reason eldrazi is good.
Removal just isnt the answer, modern has all the best removal yet fair decks relying on it like jund dont thrive. If a deck has cards with power 10/10 fair cards just dont matter as much.
Oh and if u want a modern example of a deck that was too much, ask modern players who experienced Birthing Pod when meleria pod was a thing. Didnt matter how much hate you brought in the deck just refused to lose unless there was mana screw or some god tier hands on the opposing side
February 20, 2019 11:39 a.m.
i agree that a single event isnt enough to determine what the landscape of modern would be with no ban list and id be interested to see more and more of these events.... but if people meta game and plan/expect to see eldrazi then we may see different results... which is the back bone to my theory about the landscape of the competitive scene changing quickly and rapidly initially.... i really couldnt say what would happen when the dust settled but i doubt that there would be no room for any deck to beat out whatever boogie-man emerged.
February 20, 2019 11:44 a.m.
Eldrazi were to strong in modern and i dont see a card in the bamlist that changes this.
And thats only one offender.
February 20, 2019 11:46 a.m.
But decks in the past have 100% proven that it gets to the point where they cannot be beaten. What logic is there to say it cant happen again with even more broken cards? The banlist cards are all enablers not prison cards or counterspells to stop them. If the cards we currently have in modern couldnt stop Birthing Pod or Eldrazi Temple back then how can you say it could now? Decks couldnt be stopped inthe past and thats a fact. Its happened time and time again, and the banlist has been made to be the solution because no card or deckbrewer couls find a better answer
February 20, 2019 11:50 a.m.
Time has passed since these bannings and new things have been printed... at the time some said good riddance to Splinter Twin ... with the current card pool I doubt it would ruin modern any more than unbanning Bloodbraid Elf has... there are just more tools out there now and room for a lot of fringe decks to be a contending deck... the only real drawback I see to a no ban list would come from a financial aspect with surging prices of cards listed in this thread repeatedly.
February 20, 2019 12:02 p.m.
Anyone could tell you Splinter Twin was not oppressive as a deck. Its banning actually confused many players. Wotc jusr claims to not believe no interaction combo is healthy for the game.
Thats not the point tho, im saying in the past unbeatable decks have been built and the ONLY answer was a banning. What makes you say its not gonna happen again when our cardpool is getting more broken enablers and no broken stoppers? Thats all im asking :) its happened before whynot again
February 20, 2019 12:07 p.m.
I think that would fall on R&D... and would have to print "good idea" cards in commander/unformat decks/sets.... cuz yeah it tomorrow they print a "you auto win" just by owning this card then yeah a ban would be required otherwise all formats die?
February 20, 2019 12:24 p.m.
Might be naive of me but that is just the personal bar I have for Modern... that it's a constructed format that got the bugs worked out from 8th edition printings forward.... like no Ancestral Recall and such.
February 20, 2019 12:29 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #11
Splinter Twin was so easy to beat. I never got it
February 20, 2019 1:32 p.m.
So lets getconcrete.
Which card has been printed sinse eye of ugin was banned that keeps eldrazi in check?
February 20, 2019 1:52 p.m.
Ceremonious Rejection / Stubborn Denial .... Alpine Moon ... Damping Sphere ... Field of Ruin to name a couple things.
February 20, 2019 2:01 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #14
I come back and it just seems to be Icbrgr tryna say this MNBL jank format wouldn't kill the modern community.
Most people here agree it's a bad idea.
People have spent tons of money, and the format would change a ton. Because of this, any enfranchised player would immediately quit. The format is bad legacy, with more broken cards that had to get restricted in Vintage, and every single collector of modern staples would quit. Honestly ripples would ruin the economy of MTG as a whole (because the secondary market is practically based on EDH, Standard and Modern, more specifically Modern), and the game would lose a huge number of players.
It might not just kill the format, but the game if this was implemented tomorrow. Change my mind.
February 20, 2019 2:30 p.m.
yup ive previously stated that a real drawback I could see to a no ban list would come from a financial aspect with surging prices of cards listed in this thread repeatedly (like chalice/misstep).... but as far as busting it/making it unplayable i dont think so... otherwise you could just use your same logic to say block constructed is bad standard and standard is bad moodern ect ect.....or at least bridge that concept as far as card pools are concerned.
February 20, 2019 2:36 p.m. Edited.
Well denial doesnt do anything against eldrazi. Field of ruin is to slow.
Damping sphere works only against eldrazi temple.
You have a point with rejection. But thats only for blue decks and its pretty unhealthy when decks get pushed into ine sibgle color to play one single card to combat one single deck. That doesnt make a healthy format
February 20, 2019 2:38 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #17
No, block constructed doesn't replace modern one Sunday.
You're "Drop the banlist of a healthy format with no warning or explanation as to how it would help only arguing it wouldn't hurt and that the collectors should F* themselves because they invested in cards that have retained a high cost for a reasonably long amount of time used in Modern and call it day" does replace modern one Sunday.
See the issue?
February 20, 2019 2:39 p.m.
so Alpine Moon and Ceremonious Rejection dont count due to color restrictions?
February 20, 2019 2:41 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #19
Icbrgr the format doesn't matter. If modern was no longer a format, replaced by weird legacy, people would be really mad. If weird legacy was the most healthy format in the world. It would still screw over investors and enfranchised players.
February 20, 2019 2:44 p.m.
Not really I dont think alpine moon does enough against the deck.
But even if every color had a good answer to eldrazi. Its still not a good format if every deck needs 4+ sb cards against one specifoc deck
February 20, 2019 2:44 p.m.
when it comes to the economics... its a whole different animal... my angle aims more at proving or disproving the Modern format would thrive/die with a no ban/restriction list.....legacy/vintage still exist but have a completely different price tag depending on the player base.... same goes for standard....depending how serious of a player you are you can spend a lot of money playing in a standard format....i dont exactly control the price of Force of Will / Mental Misstep / Teferi, Hero of Dominaria ... but those cards serve the same purpose in there perspective arenas.
February 20, 2019 2:49 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #22
Wait... Teferi = Force = Misstep?
Like Force = Misstep I get... but Teferi?
Spell Pierce is the equivalent in standard, and most blue lists in standard run them as 1-4 ofs mainboard with some number sideboard, excluding Azorius Aggro which runs Negate s SB, but that deck is basically Mono-White, so it doesn't count.
February 20, 2019 2:53 p.m.
teferi wasnt meant to equate to misstep/FOW but more or less represent an expensive piece that is a common element in "succesful brews"...my bad for not clarifying but yeah i was still on the pricetag/economics point...which is made more confusing based on missteps current price but prediction that it would spike
February 20, 2019 3:07 p.m. Edited.
so i guess to clean it up.... in a no ban modern format... the guy who just bought into there paper Through the Breach combo would be understandibly furious considering what else would be made available like Hypergenesis ... and if eveyone feels that there deck will require a full playset of Mental Misstep then i can only assum that the price would go up due to the demand and lack of reprints..so the guy who has a shoe box of new phyrexia cards in a shoe box from when he/she was in shool then i guess they'd be pumped for it.
February 20, 2019 3:13 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #25
Vman I think Hypergenesis mainboarding 4 Ingot Chewer would be 60/40 vs eldrazi. And mainboarding the 4 chewers is entirely reasonable when eldrazi is a large portion of the field.
February 20, 2019 3:15 p.m.
DAWT_PLAWT says... #26
Personally, I think that either a dimir or mono black midrange would do the best against eldrazi currently, as Infernal Reckoning is probably the best removal against eldrazi currently, and both blue and black could be flexible enough to either attrition out or counter/ remove the threats presented
February 20, 2019 4:02 p.m.
Aggro beats Control, Control beats Combo, Combo beats Aggro
Glistener Elf exist:
Aggro beats control essentially by beating face with efficient creatures/synergies to kill of a control player before they can stabilize. Robots/affinity and infect are very good at killing fast in this way.
Grapeshot exists:
combo typically beats aggro by using the interaction between two or more cards as a win condition... and doing it FAST before they can get run over by creatures...so there are lots and lots of 0-2CMC spells to combo out quickly.
Chalice of the Void exists:
A control deck focuses on restricting and denying the opponent's resources or actions. eldrazi is successful because of Chalice of the Void preying on hyper low costed spells allowing for it to cast its huge threats....almost in the same way miracles abuse Sensei's Divining Top in conjunction with Counterbalance
Abrupt Decay exists...
there are difinitly more than just 3 archetypes but generally these basic rules still apply. but the endgame is that the answers are available...no not every deck has an answer to every issue... everything will have its color restrictions like rakdos/grixis being weak to enchantments and such but its that nature of the color pie/game.
i fail to see how the ban list prevents this from working/destroying the Modern format.
February 20, 2019 5:05 p.m. Edited.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #28
Exactly - buying in to a deck only to have the "better thing" get unbanned and cost you another 200 bucks really sucks balls. Then, things start getting the Golgari Grave-Troll treatment and it's just a mess.
I am all for the Ban List. I'm barely a competitive player. But in a vacuum.. yada yada yada... I have a grasp on a macro level why most of what's banned, should be.
I agree that the "Boring to play/Time running out" cards should NEVER, EVER, be legal again
Second Sunrise - I'm looking at you.
I agree that the busted cards list is obvious
Then, there is the "Hmmm....Is that really that bad?"
February 20, 2019 5:06 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #29
Exactly - buying in to a deck only to have the "better thing" get unbanned and cost you another 200 bucks really sucks balls. Then, things start getting the Golgari Grave-Troll treatment and it's just a mess.
I am all for the Ban List. I'm barely a competitive player. But in a vacuum.. yada yada yada... I have a grasp on a macro level why most of what's banned, should be.
I agree that the "Boring to play/Time running out" cards should NEVER, EVER, be legal again
Second Sunrise - I'm looking at you.
I agree that the busted cards list is obvious
Then, there is the "Hmmm....Is that really that bad?"
February 20, 2019 5:08 p.m.
Flooremoji says... #30
My philosophy is that if a deck is so opressive you need to be playing Mindbreak Trap and freinds just to have a shot, ban the card.
February 20, 2019 5:19 p.m.
Ok for the 20th and last time. Your theory crafting is good and fine but eldrazi is too good. It doesnt have bad MUs unless you build a deck specifically to beat it. Its not healthy it needs to be banned. If eye stays banned then other decks would run rampant so they need to stay banned as well.
Do you really want to play modern when only have eldrazi, infect and storm are viable? Do you realise how awfully non diverse this format would be?
Chalice of the void is nota control card. Eldrazi is not a control deck. You should maybe try to understand what you are talking about before you try to talk about it.
February 20, 2019 6:43 p.m.
Restricting and denying resources and actions pretty much sums up a control card.
February 20, 2019 6:48 p.m.
Yeah no. Have you acrually read the article that youve linked?
"Control decks are all about denying their opponent the ability to do anything, up until they point where they can drop an almost unstoppable win condition. This is done mainly through the use of counterspells and removal, i.e. "
Eldrazi has t2 win potential ita not a control but an aggro deck. It plays chalice to a) stop control decks from using one cmc removal spells. And b) combo decks from casting their combo pieces.
Chalice is basically never played in control decks.
February 20, 2019 6:54 p.m.
i do agree that eldrazi isnt a control deck in the purest sense and there are definitely more than just 3 archetypes/combinations but generally these basic rules still apply. but the endgame is that the answers are available... Chalice of the Void is a control card all day everyday; which is why eldrazi > storm/combo.
February 20, 2019 7:04 p.m.
No its not
Control decks dont have t2 kills period. The model you are using is to simple as you agree yourself. There are aggro decks that beat combo decks and chalice is one way to do that.
How ever this discussion is completely pointless unless someone presents a reasonable deck to beat eldrazi. Because thats the important pount. Eldrazi is to good to not be banned
February 20, 2019 7:14 p.m.
Icbrgr:
"artifact lands like Ancient Den , did not seem to really matter at all in the games we played. I would say an artifact-land based Affinity deck could probably end up being a decent strategy in the format, but then again, maybe not. Affinity is not a great strategy in Legacy, and decks like Eldrazi, Dark Depths, and White-Blue Counter-Top were strategies that played at a near-Legacy power level. Affinity was just outclassed."
THIS exact comment is why I question the veracity of this debate at all. BBD himself states that the top NBLM decks were playing at near legacy levels.
Here's my question: If the best NBLM decks are basically legacy decks, what reason does NBLM have for existing? By BBD's own analysis, it's a format whose meta is comparable to legacy sans force and degenerate combo... a legacy lite (as I already discussed).
Wanting to play legacy-lite is fine. Wanting to play NBLM is fine. Wanting to turn modern into NBLM/legacy-lite completely defeats the purpose of having the modern format exist altogether, as it would become just too similar to legacy.
Forget the "balance" argument of whether NBLM could have a healthy meta for just a moment. Let's say NBLM exists, and the meta is healthy enough. For all intents an purposes, why would I take any interest in NBLM over legacy, or vice versa? The two formats would be nearly identical, with nearly identical metas, which completely defeats the main goal of having a NEW format to begin with.
So should modern have a banlist? YES, absolutely, and it's not because modern lacks the capacity to be balanced without a ban list (although a certain 5 cards, arguably more, might need to stay banned to maintain the health of NBLM). It's because modern, sans banlist, ceases to be special in any way, shape, or form. It's just legacy's punk @$$ little brother.
February 20, 2019 8:09 p.m.
Also, because it came up and it seems we don't all remember why twin got banned: WotC announced in their statement that twin was banned, not because it was breaking the format or being overly oppressive, but because it was hands down the best strategy that U/R could put forward. ANY U/R/x deck HAD to run twin, because it was a simple 8 cards that gave you a combo win. Once running twin, might as well support it, because it's your best wincon, and oh look, now you're playing U/R/x twin instead of U/R/x anything else.
Here's the worst part: That's still the case. Twin is a more consistent deck than Izzet Phoenix is, and while Phoenix might stick around if twin were unbanned, it would give up more than half of its share on the meta to twin. Izzet Whir decks would completely concede their meta share to twin as well.
Tl;Dr: Twin was banned not because it was oppressing the modern meta, but because it completely and thoroughly oppressed the U/R/x color identity as a whole.
February 20, 2019 8:24 p.m. Edited.
again i agree with you; eldrazi is not a control deck...but Chalice of the Void is a control card...and that was where my food chain of rock paper scissors of "this beats that and that beats this" cam into play with the article i posted (it was more about the principles/concepts).... afterall there are more than just 3 archetypes... Thoughtseize is a control card as well and is in many Midrange decks as they use early elements to control the game to then turn a corner and before applying pressure with efficient creatures....just because a deck uses control spells/aspects doesn't make it all out control in the same way as using an early creature doesn't make you an aggro deck
several anti-eldrazi pieces have been pointed out throughout this thread.... Eye of Ugin is powerful but there are several accessible answers to it in the same way.....take jund for example....hand disruption with Thoughtseize ...easy enough to throw in Alpine Moon and Abrupt Decay / Assassin's Trophy . without "Going out of your way to hate out a deck."
DuTogira I tend to think as the Format itself as a ban list.... meaning 7th edition and before arent gonna be used/are "banned" (unless reprinted)....with that mindset (assuming no cards in any format were banned to keep it fair/sake of argument).... Standard < would be the Modern's punk @$$ little brother as < Modern is just legacy's punk @$$ little brother
February 20, 2019 8:29 p.m.
Icbrgr
You're free to view things however you like, but Standard, modern, and legacy have completely different metas. The only all-pervasive archetypes are U/W control decks, B/G midrange decks, and Mono-Red aggro.
When I label NBLM as "Legacy's Punk @$$ little brother" it's not because of the inherent power level stepping of the formats (legacy is a t2-3 format, modern t4-5, standard t6+), it's because the best decks in NBLM and Legacy are the EXACT same archetypes (Eldrazi aggro, Dark Depths combo, Counter/Top miracles control, storm, stoneblade).
At this point though I'm starting to get the feeling that you just like playing devil's advocate, and this conversation may have moved past "is NBLM a good idea" :P
BBD himself said that NBLM's meta is nearly identical to legacy's. That's a red flag. Those two formats will fight for the interest of a mutual audience, and one of them will win and kill the other, save for a small cult following that sustains the "loser" format.
Canlander, Pauper, Frontier, these are all formats that are WAY ahead of becoming officially sanctioned formats compared to NBLM, so as far as my concern over modern just up and losing its banlist... it's not happening. Not until all those and more become officially sanctioned formats.
February 20, 2019 8:54 p.m. Edited.
As far as cards the current modern meta might be able to handle having unbanned:
Stoneforge Mystic
,
Punishing Fire
, and
Preordain
/
Ponder
(only one, not the other) are the only cards that I might consider pulling off the ban list.
Punishing Fire
is slow and primarily combo's with
Grove of the Burnwillows
plus locking your opponent out of the game, but
Leyline of Sanctity
handles that well enough in sideboards, and modern packs enough land destruction that most decks which punishing groves would beat already get roflstomped by whir decks anyway.
I SERIOUSLY question whether
Preordain
/
Ponder
are ok with Izzet Phoenix AND storm being archetypes... but maybe modern could handle just one? Certainly not both. Worst case we could experiment with it for one pro tour and re-ban the cantrip if it's too good.
Stoneforge Mystic
... when was the last time we saw a good modern deck which had white as its primary color? Honestly can't remember. Modern doesn't have
True-Name Nemesis
or
Umezawa's Jitte
or
Skullclamp
so I think mystic should be fine? I mean it's mostly just fetching up swords/
Batterskull
which doesn't seem oppressive.
Assassin's Trophy
or
Cindervines
... you know what, let's just leave it at "modern has enough artifact removal that I don't think some strong equipment will break anything"
Beyond that, leave that banlist as is. Everything else on it either boosts an already powerful archetype (which would require further unbannings to put the now relatively underpowered modern decks back on the newly buffed deck's level... no thanks), or unlocks an obnoxiously convoluted and long-winded combo (sunrise and KCI)
February 20, 2019 9:20 p.m.
oh i can definitely agree with that DuTogira... i dont see this actually happening (removal of the ban/switch to a restricted list) anytime in the near future... granted i would welcome it but i dont exactly represent the majority of WoTC's player base/investors lol.
my argument/devils advocate stance is purely in the realm of balance of the would-be-modern format...i dont think that with the card pool available printed from 8th edition forward that we would just be ruled by one deck to rule them all/still have a healthy environment without having the sins of uber busted cards like Ancestral Recall .
February 20, 2019 9:26 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #42
DuTogira: Umezawa's Jitte is actually in a modern legal set. it would be legal if it weren't banned.
February 20, 2019 10:01 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #44
DuTogira: not sure what you mean by that. i am of the opinion that Umezawa's Jitte is safe to come off the ban list, even alongside Stoneforge Mystic .
February 20, 2019 11:15 p.m.
PlatinumOne ah... well agree to disagree then. I'm of the opinion that jitte is borked beyond belief.
February 20, 2019 11:18 p.m. Edited.
Yeah sure your the only person that ive eer seen call chalice a control card.
And you still have to show me a reasonable deck that beats eldrazi in nblm. Thats basically the point a few people where trying to make since the beginning. Your theory doesnt work because there is no bad MU for eldrazi.
You seem to ignore that and thats super annoying
February 21, 2019 5:55 a.m.
"if it looks like a duck... quacks like a duck...".... no Chalice of the Void is certainly not a permission spell that goes on the stack; but i think its obvious that its role in anyones deck is similar to Blood Moon in the sense that they are Restricting and denying resources and actions of the opponent... people who run Chalice/Moon build their decks around them....and in time the meta adapts to this.
when it comes to actual tournament results...i dont think one event is enough to be conclusive...so all anyone can do is theory craft. This is where i was going with "Aggro beats Control, Control beats Combo, Combo beats Aggro" fundamentals as well as making a case for new cards thats have been printed since Eye of Ugin with Ceremonious Rejection / Disdainful Stroke .... Alpine Moon ... Damping Sphere Infernal Reckoning and more....
with these things in mind i dont think decks are going to have to go "All-in" to beat eldrazi" anymore then just being aware it exists on the competitive scene like anything else.... Miricles placed 2nd in the actual tournement/event in a field of eldrazi...
Eye of Ugin is powerful but there are several accessible answers to it in the same way.....take jund for example....hand disruption with Thoughtseize ...easy enough to throw in Alpine Moon and Abrupt Decay / Assassin's Trophy .....there is just so much removal...like a lot of removal... to be able Fulminator Mage /Fulminate a land, Bloodbraid Elf /Cascade into Kolaghan's Command /K-Command, get Fulminator back.... im just not convinced that eldrazi cant be dealt with.
as far as the mulligan scenario is concerned... Serum Powder exists...but nobody is always gonna have there best cards every game...thats why its a game.
February 21, 2019 7:27 a.m.
Dude. Removal doesnt do shit against eldrazi
They flood the board with 4/4 or 5/5 creatures in t2. The majority of those carda doesnt do anyhing against eldrazi
February 21, 2019 7:33 a.m.
And as you said one result of one tournament doesnt say anything. So dont talk about the one miracles list please. Thanks
February 21, 2019 7:34 a.m.
And they still have chalice against removal.
Your theory is useless because there is no aggro or combo deck that can cinstantly beat eldrazi.s
shadow63 says... #1
Icbrgr your putting to much stock into that single no ban list event. One event isnt enough to see what will happen in the meta at large. Also you keep bringing up hate cards as answers to decks that become more broken without the ban list but those decks still exist now with the ban list and dont get hated out of the meta so removing the ban list only allows them to become more powerful while no new hate cards exist to take them out
February 20, 2019 11:34 a.m.