My thoughts on the Modern Banned List and how I think it should change.
Modern forum
Posted on Dec. 18, 2015, 6:39 p.m. by CheeseBro
The Modern Banned List. Everyone is always arguing about how it should change. This should get Banned! This should get unbanned! seriously its annoying, But casting my vote among the community is yet inevitable.
My Thoughts.
I think the banned list is good, making sure the format is not Broken completely. yet, some cards dont really seem that they belong there.
Changes
Bannings
Summer Bloom: This card is Bonkers. it enables crazy combos in Amulet Bloom, but is also just downright amazing. It breaks the curve, allowing you to play 6-drops way earlier than you are supposed to be able to. I think it should be banned.
I think the rest is fine.
Unbannings
Ancient Den and the Artifact Land cycle: People argue that affinity would be broken with this, but I disagree. Affinity has no trouble getting out artifatcs fast and having metal craft for Mox Opal and Etched Champion, so i dont really think adding more artifact lands would really help. after all, most affinity cards are colorless, and have Glimmervoid, Mox Opal, and Springleaf Drum. for colored mana. as for artifact lands, affinity already runs Darksteel Citadel, Blinkmoth Nexus, and Inkmoth Nexus. A few more lands that would even be that effective wouldnt help that much.
Dread Return: I understand how this is good, but really? the only decent reanimator deck (other than living end) that actually sees play is Gifts Ungiven. I dont really think Gifts Ungiven will want to run it because they dont really play creatures before reanimation. Would it spring up new archetypes? I dont think so. There are better reanimator spells in modern and really this is not that abusable.
Glimpse of Nature: Why is this even banned? Yes, you can generate some massive card draw in creature heavy decks like elves. Also, it is good in the 0-drop storm decks, but that is legacy. Modern does not have the tutors, rituals, and storm cards to support it unless you play Temur storm with this, which would not work at all.
Green Sun's Zenith: This is a great card. But we also have Chord of Calling! It has convoke basically rendering it the same cost, its an instant, and can get any creature! Im not saying Chord is better, but I just dont think Green Sun's Zenith should be banned, especially considering the fact that NO decks run Chord of Calling.
Punishing Fire: Really? Really? This is abusable with Grove of the Burnwillows and that is about it. even with it, it is a VERY slow combo. with it, you can get a Amazing... Wait for it... 2 damage per turn! Isnt that great? NO. any deck can either dirupt you, or easily outrace you. also, you have no guarantee that you will draw it. you can have land tutors such as Sylvan Scrying, but really you cant tutor up Punishing Fire effectively.
Sword of the Meek: Yes, it combos with Thopter Foundry. I am aware. But really? You get 1 1/1 thopter with flying for every one mana you spend. that not that great, especially considering that every deck runs boardwipes and artifact hate in sideboard. you can get some nice value, but overall, it is not worth the effort of building up the combo and protecting it.
yeah, so those are my thoughts on the Modern Banned List. Discuss!
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #4
I don't think Summer Bloom needs a ban. Sure, that occasional god hand is annoying, but that card is really only nuts if you're running the bounce lands and/or a huge land count. I think a combo deck that only wins on turn 2 or 3 with a perfect or near-perfect draw is fine.
I second the unbanning of Sword of the Meek. Everything else on there has good reason to stay banned in Modern.
December 18, 2015 6:59 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #5
I get the impression you havent played modern for very long? Most of the cards you mentioned should be unbanned are pretty damn broken, and have proven to be in the past in various decks.
Artifact lands? Because Cranial Plating will kill you that much faster. Do we really need to give the most played modern deck more toys, or is the fact that it is the most played deck evidence enough that new toys will probably break it?
Dread return? Because Dredge is a thing, and all it is missing from legacy lists if it was ported to modern is Lions Eye Diamond basically. Maybe ichorid in the odd list.
Glimpse and GSZ are both basically banned because of Combo Elves from my understanding. GSZ just makes them waaay to reliable and glimpse just ridiculous power, allowing you to basically draw and cast your entire library in one turn.
Punishing Fire was banned specifically because of grove of the burnwillows. It just killed so many decks, mostly aggro, but also control. It allows you to kill off so many threats in the format, and also acts as a win condition in and of itself. They banned it because it reduced the number of viable decks in the format.
Sword of the meek is probably the most unbannable card on tour list, but you forget that it also gains you life, putting you in a great position vs aggro and burn. Also, its super fast and cheap, costing 2-4 mana and 1-2 cards to get out. Since you can faithless looting sword into the grave or whatever you dont even need the card in hand or mana to cast or equip it, meaning you can get your combo set up on turn 2 easily enough. But ya, I dont know how it would work, but Id like to see it unbanned(mostly cause I used to play it :P).
December 18, 2015 7:03 p.m.
frozeninfate says... #6
Green Sun's Zenith is broken because you can pull Dryad Arbor with it for 1 mana, so it's pretty nice ramp. Dread Return was used in landless dredge, though I don't see why it should be banned for that.
December 18, 2015 7:05 p.m.
To respond in order to all of these:
Artifact Lands: Sacrifice lands to Arcbound Ravager and win turn 3.
Never will be removed.
Dread Return: This card is one of the most OP cards on the banlist. We don't need any turn 1 wins. Wizards heavily agrees with me.
Never will be removed.
Glimpse of Nature: Elf, elf, elf, elf, more elves, more elves, Craterhoof Behemoth, GG.
Never will be removed.
Green Sun's Zenith: The problem is that this card is infinitely better than Chord of Calling because Chord implies you have the creatures to convoke it. Also that GGG in the cost forces heavy green where GSZ can be for efficient cards or Dryad Arbor turn 1.
Never will be removed.
Punishing Fire: I also did not understand how broken this was until someone pointed out to me that Modern is a creature format, unlike Legacy. You never would use Punishing Fire on an opponent due to how slow it is. This does not account for the creatures they have, though, which can now be killed with repeatable removal. GG to aggro.
May be removed but very unlikely.
Sword of the Meek: The only card on your list I somewhat agree with. I haven't seen it played but it doesn't seem TOO ridiculous of a combo, considering it doesn't end the game early. What it does do, though, is give a renewable source of blockers for a very cheap mana cost. In Control, it would allow extreme stalling, whereas it could eventually overwhelm. This card I think could possibly be taken off as a temporary ban, though. This would be against Wizard's trends so don't hope for it.
May be removed but very unlikely.
December 18, 2015 7:05 p.m.
jandrobard says... #8
Green Sun's Zenith is banned partially because of T1 GSZ for 0 into Dryad Arbor. Elves has run Chord of Calling in the past (I don't play the deck or track it, it may run it now) and would at least try GSZ. It could be unbanned though. And Punishing Fire is really good, it provides a removal engine that's difficult to disrupt game 1 and just wins against lots of decks in topdeck mode. "You play a Dark Confidant/Delver of Secrets Flip/Elvish Archdruid/whatever? I Punishing Fire it, just like the last 2 turns."
December 18, 2015 7:09 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #9
Artifact lands don't make Affinity much better. Maybe a small step up, but it's certainly not gamebreaking. They still want the manlands.
Other than that, your suggested changes are beyond stupid.
December 18, 2015 7:15 p.m.
hahahahahHaHaHaHaHaHaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Oh, wait, you are serious?
Fire is 2 damage repeatable. It kills so many creatures. Makes the format even grindier than it already is.
Artifact lands make affinity both more consistant and easier to kill as shatterstorm kills their lands. However the ability to turn 3 kill via plating, ravager or disciple is too much.
Sword is fairly unbanable but it I would want to see another answer or two printed before then.
Dread Return is insanely powerful. They could unban it by banning narcomeba IMO as it then requires an engine rather than just chain dredges. However the potential for abuse is probably too great.
GSZ goes in every green deck. It is a copy of every green creature in your deck and recurrs itself.
Glimpse would be insane in elves nowever day with out various 2 bodies for 1 card on elves.
Summer Bloom I dont think warrents banning but Hive Mind can probably go so you have to win via attacking which in turn opens up more avenues of attack.
December 18, 2015 7:17 p.m.
Programmer_112 says... #11
@GlistenerAgent: Affinity just plays Artifact Lands and Manlands. Cutting the basic Mountain and Glimmervoids doesn't really hurt. They probably wouldn't bust Modern completely in half, unlike some other cards on this list coughDread Returncough, but Affinity just doesn't need to be better.
December 18, 2015 7:22 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #12
Pretty much what everyone said.
And shitstorm in 3... 2... 1...
December 18, 2015 7:23 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #13
Your understanding of Modern needs more understanding. And this is coming from someone who advocates that JtMS should warrant testing in Modern. However, unlike a few months ago when I proposed my own form of madness, you have provided shaky and unsubstantial reasoning. Furthermore, you have listed several cards which I would warrant even more broken than JtMS.
The only card that you have listed that warrants an unbanning is Sword of the Meek. I advocate for SotM because it might actually enable Tezzerator to be a somewhat more competitive deck. And since Tezzerator is my secret pet deck I am incredibly biased.
So either further substantiate your claims or further your understanding of the Modern format.
December 18, 2015 7:28 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #14
Letting people play with more cards is probably worth the boost to a popular deck. If Affinity becomes too good, I guess we just reban the lands. Playing them means you have less sources for your colored SB cards, so there is a real cost.
Who knows, maybe Tezz becomes playable or some other cool deck pops up.
December 18, 2015 7:28 p.m.
Programmer_112 says... #15
On the actual list:
Artifact Lands? Why does Affinity need new cards? It's already (arguably) the best deck in the format, and you want to make it significantly better.
Dread Return: The fact that you want this off of the banlist proves that you have no idea why it's on there in the first place. Bridge from Below + Narcomoeba + Dread Return + Iona, Shield of Emeria/Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite/Flame-Kin Zealot is great in Vintage; it would break Modern completely in half.
Glimpse of Nature: waitwut. Glimpse of Nature+Heritage Druid+a ton of elves+Craterhoof Behemoth=gg. This is sort of like the above: this combo is great in Legacy, and would also break Modern completely in half.
Green Sun's Zenith: Yeah, no. Dryad Arbor with this is broken, plus it has a bunch of random utility. This is far, far too much value. Clearly you have never tried to play against this card.
Punishing Fire: Nope. PFire+Grove is broken. Killing infinity creatures is too good.
Sword of the Meek: This is actually interesting. Sword+Foundry is insanely good, yeah, but since it's a control finisher, it might be OK. Control isn't great in Modern, and although it would instantly become T1 with Sword, maybe that's OK.
On banning Summer Bloom: No. Nothing from the Amulet deck needs to be banned, and if anything did, it would be Amulet of Vigor.
December 18, 2015 7:32 p.m.
If you've ever played against the artifact lands you'd understand why they are banned
Not really sure about dread return im pretty sure it's the flash back
I once played with a proxy of glimpse of nature in my green deck I drew it three games in a row and all three games I just crushed my opponent
I think everyone else covered punishing fire well enough
Green suns zenith is banned because it gets shuffled back into your deck after you play its already an insanely powerful tutor for 1 mana plus the cost of the creature but add it built in recursion just makes it bonkers.
Sword of the meek and the foundry is the most efficient creature engine in the game besides splinter twin and I'm sure that other combos would spring up with swords un banning
December 18, 2015 7:46 p.m.
I don't understand why Umezawa's Jitte is band though
December 18, 2015 7:48 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #18
shadow63 read Umezawa's Jitte closely. You'll notice that it isn't damage to an oppoent, but combat damage in general. It's a huge difference and creates something incredibly broken.
December 18, 2015 7:52 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #19
Surely anybody who understands how Amulet Bloom functions should know that Amulet of Vigor is the enabler, and not Summer Bloom? Amulet has been used in the past in Cloudpost decks to break formats, whilst Bloom has been used in 1 deck. Amulet doesn't need a banning, because the deck isn't oppressive, but if anything will go, it's the Amulet.
The only thing to reasonably take off of the list is Sword of the Meek.
December 18, 2015 8 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #20
shadow63 Any deck that could reasonably run Jitte would run Jitte. You'd have a format of Jitte vs Jitte decks. That's not fun.
December 18, 2015 8:01 p.m.
This is a very, very bad list of potential bans and unbans. Summer Bloom is not warping the format around itself or dominating every tournament, and some of the cards you're proposing to unban would do one (or both). Have you seen what Legacy Dredge does with Dread Return? Or Legacy Elves with Glimpse of Nature or Green Sun's Zenith (which every green deck ever would run)? Or old-school Affinity with Artifact lands? All of those things are way too strong for Modern. Punishing Fire also basically means that creature-based aggro decks can't succeed. It is an eternal source of value that makes creature-based comebacks almost impossible. All of those would throw the delicate format balance out of whack. I suggest you read more Modern coverage and articles before throwing up uninformed opinions like this up there.
P.S.: You'll note I didn't mention Sword of the Meek. I'm unconvinced this one is oppressive (and it helps out some of the more underserved color combinations in Dimir/Esper), and I am thus open to it being unbanned.
December 18, 2015 8:02 p.m.
Oh damn I thought it had to be a player that's broken now I understand
December 18, 2015 8:09 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #23
JexInfinite Most people would disagree with you. Resolving Bloom without Amulet is much better than resolving Amulet without Bloom, because Amulet does nothing by itself. Summer Bloom is most certainly what would be banned.
To those saying that artifact lands would break Affinity in half: They wouldn't. The deck would go from four to 8 or so, and even then would wish it had Glimmervoids to cast sideboard cards. I am not sure whether they should be unbanned or not, but it's not as gamebreaking as some are making it out to be.
December 18, 2015 8:14 p.m.
NoPantsParade says... #24
I think they should unban Bloodbraid Elf and/or Punishing Fire because I play Jund and that would be super nice.
No but seriously, everything should stay banned.
December 18, 2015 8:42 p.m.
The "affinity for artifacts" creatures will come back into the deck with the lands available (Frogmite for sure, not sure if Myr Enforcer). That increases the power level of the deck somewhat, because now you can hang with some decks even before something like Cranial Plating hits the floor. Speaking of which... Cranial Plating becomes even more potent when most of your lands are pitching in.
December 18, 2015 8:42 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #26
You could also get the Atog/Fling package out, which while it's not format-warping in today's Modern, certainly gives the deck more flexibility, which it doesn't need.
December 18, 2015 8:45 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #27
GlistenerAgent Amulet Bloom enables T1 and T2 wins. Summer Bloom does not. You can win on T3 without even seeing a Bloom. Fast wins are what people are mad about, not the slow T6 wins without Amulet. Cut out Amulet, and the deck ceases to exist, because winning the game really late sucks. You play the deck for the opportunity to win against anything quite quickly.
December 18, 2015 9:24 p.m. Edited.
GlistenerAgent says... #28
All I know is that you take Bloom with your discard spells and counter it with higher priority than Amulet.
December 18, 2015 9:28 p.m.
filledelanuit says... #30
Wow. Just wow.
Of all the cards on there one would not bust modern in half and that is sword of the meek. And while I think the card should be unbanned because Tezz is literally the sweetest deck in the world, it would be very good.
Dread return is just stupid. Dredge is an insane deck in legacy and giving it dread return would bust modern right in half.
Glimpse and GSZ are even scarier. Elves is already a good deck; they don't need a busted combo piece. With either of those cards elves would be a pretty consistent turn three deck.
PFire - You know how we have the bolt test in modern. Well now every creature with two toughness or less is unplayable unless it has pro-red, indestructible or hexproof. You want to beat elves, assemble this uncounterable two card combo and win. Zoo got you down, burn them to death as well. Hatebears messing with you, kill those two. Oh, and affinity what doesn't this kill? Champion and uh... Champion? Oh and ravager.
December 18, 2015 11:43 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #31
Hey guys what about Stoneforge Mystic? As much as I want to play that card, Junk Blade - SFM modern says no way.
You guys have me hoping for a Sword of the Meek unbanning now because I really want to see Tezzerator become a deck. UB all the way!
What about a Goyf banning? I know it won't happen for obvious reasons (so don't start yelling at me) but my god would that piss almost every modern player off.
December 19, 2015 12:29 a.m. Edited.
Darkmagi1131 says... #32
Check out Card Kingdom's YouTube page they have a no banned list modern video seris going on and you'll see why those cards should stay banned... the only one I havnt seen represented is Sword of the Meek... so I'd say it's the one most likely to be able to be unbanned
December 19, 2015 8:03 a.m.
Programmer_112 says... #33
GlistenerAgent makes a good point. Artifact Lands wouldn't completely break Affinity. However, they would make it significantly better, and the deck just doesn't need to be any better. Artifact Lands should stay on for the same reason that Bloodbraid Elf should stay on: the respective decks would not become 100% oppressive, but they're already Tier 1, and there's just no need to give them a boost.
December 19, 2015 12:23 p.m.
It would make the deck more consistent amd it would make cranial plating even better. Both of which are things affinity doesn't need, and by extension modern as a whole.
December 19, 2015 2:23 p.m.
Dalektable says... #36
I hope this thread is a big troll. I'm not going to get into it because everyone else already has, but these cards are all incredibly busted besides Sword.
December 19, 2015 3:01 p.m.
DeJeffreLot says... #37
Oooh is this thread where we say what stupidly busted cards we want unbanned?
I want Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Ponder + Preordain unbanned for delver-ish reasons
December 20, 2015 1:09 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #38
DeJeffreLot honestly, Jace isn't nearly as bad as he once was. He's still powerful, but I've come to feel like he isn't broken and at least warrants some for of testing.
December 20, 2015 10:19 a.m.
No, repeatable Brainstorms (a card that would never be allowed in Modern, ever) sounds pretty busted to me. You can +2 early to make it Lightning Bolt-proof, and then drown your opponents in a tide of value. I think that's far too strong for Modern.
December 20, 2015 11:22 a.m.
Sword of the Meek is part of a massive direct damage engine. My friend uses it in his EDH deck, where Sword of the Meek is not banned.
he plays Sword, Chromatic Star, Thopter Foundry and Cranial Plating.To make the engine work, he drops Helm of Awakening.
Discard Star, create a mana. Tap foundry, create a token thopter. Cranial plating then adds +1. repeat as long as you have mana (which can be infinite with any other way to return Chromatic Star. He uses his commander, which returns an artifact whenever he plays a creature)
I'm not sure how he does it, but he manages to transfer the damage to unblockable direct damage.
It is likely not as fast in Modern due to the differences between EDH and Modern, but he can smack you for up to 25 damage a turn.Artifact destruction does not stop it, you have to exile a piece of the combo.In modern, even if he only hit you for 4 or 5 damage per turn, the fact that it is unblockable makes it broken. Wizards likes players to at least have a fighting chance.
Hope this helps explain why Sword of the Meek is definitely a format breaking card.
December 20, 2015 6:10 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #41
Sword of the Meek + Thopter Foundry is all you need to be busted. Plating is just extra.
December 20, 2015 6:17 p.m.
Friend just texted me the answer. The way he converts the damage from creature to direct is with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas's ultimate. Pretty easy to reach, considering he starts at 3 loyalty and ultimates at 4.
December 20, 2015 6:38 p.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #43
I actually do think Big Daddy Jace should be unbanned. It would give true control decks a bit more to work with and the format may very well be fast and powerful enough to handle him now.
December 22, 2015 12:34 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #44
People who say Jace should be unbanned probably have no idea what that card can do. No way in hell that's coming back.
December 22, 2015 1:26 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #45
I'm familiar with the card, GlistenerAgent. We know what it can do in eternal formats and what it did in Standard. Nobody knows what it would do in Modern. It's never been in Modern, and Modern is quite different now than it was at its inception. The first people I heard making serious arguments for the idea of a JTMS unban were experienced judges. I found their arguments persuasive, obviously.
Anyway, if you guys want to know what happens when you toss the banlist out the window check this out. It's not what you'd expect.
December 22, 2015 2:30 a.m.
ITT: lots of noobs without a clue. unbanning JTMS? GSZ? artifact lands? jesus, what a bunch of tards. perhaps you morons cant see the power of those cards, but many others do, and see the oppressive format we'd get.
also, bloom will probably get the banhammer soon. the problem isnt "just" that its a turn 2-3 combo. the problem is that its WAY TOO CONSISTENT. anyone disputing that either has no freaking idea what hes talking about, or is playing bloom and trying to divert attention to not lose the money spent.
December 23, 2015 7:13 a.m.
We already had an entire thread about JtMS and his ability to be unbanned a while back, we don't really need another one I don't think.
As far as Amulet of Vigor vs Summer Bloom, Bloom is what you take with discard because it gives the Bloom player an inevitability of sorts. Amulet gets you the t1-3 wins, so it's what needs to be banned. Or, I guess by banning bloom the archetype might survive as some janky, non-tier deck running 4 Azusa, Lost but Seeking or something along those lines.
And everything that everyone else has said about the OP's list is spot on. I have no real idea why he thought he was qualified to put together this list.
December 23, 2015 7:25 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #48
Good read. I get the feeling with all the talk lately MBNL may be coming around as an unofficial format.
Although I'm not particularly happy with the whole Mental Misstep side effect.
December 23, 2015 10:04 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #49
@arcdevil: "Probably" may be too strong. Even a consistent turn 2-3 win isn't enough to necessarily get a ban. The deck also has to put up strong results. Last I checked, Bloom hasn't been. That could even be from the fear of a ban; but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it gets through the next banlist update totally intact. I also wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't.
@awphutt: I was in that thread (on the opposite side of the issue from where I am now). Considering people seem to get really whiny and obnoxious when the topic comes up, I'm inclined to agree with you. There doesn't seem to be any way to have a level-headed discussion.
@APPLE01DOJ: It's a fascinating format. Misstep is a thing, but as I understand it it's not as oppressive as a lot of people expected.
December 23, 2015 10:10 a.m. Edited.
ComradeJim270: Nah. WOTC has made blatantly clear that they want modern to be a turn 4 format. Anything that allows turn2/3 combos going off reliably gets invariably banhammered sooner rather than later. Also, results? the deck shows a lot at top 8s and wins, being a minimal part of the meta right now.
I think it is exactly what you said: People are afraid of buying into it because its very clearly getting something banned. If this deck was as ubiquitous as twin, I'd already be banned. But since its keeping a low profile, WOTC hasnt been forced to rush the ban. Its coming, anyway....
ChiefBell says... #2
Summer Bloom doesn't need banning. Its only really seen in one deck, and only works if your hand is like FULL of land. It's not a strong card without a lot of enablers.
December 18, 2015 6:53 p.m.