Phyrexian Revoker vs. Pithing Needle sideboard
Modern forum
Posted on April 9, 2015, 4:36 p.m. by LampeShades
I understand the difference between the cards. But the effect is the same.
Which do you prefer// have found more useful?
Which do certain deck types prefer to run?
(Card evaluation exclusively coming out of the sideboard)
GlistenerAgent says... #3
Don't be playing those cards. They stink. Every deck has a bunch of different threats.
If you are silly and want to anyway, Pithing Needle.
April 9, 2015 4:43 p.m.
Revoker also gets removed by wrath effects. Revoker is also more expensive to cast. Very few decks would pick revoker over needle IMHO.
April 9, 2015 4:46 p.m.
I usually agree with you GlistenerAgent but I'll have to differ on this one. In my U-Tron, needle is an mvp in the mirror-ish RG match to shut down a resolved Karn. It takes out nexus and buys me some time against infect, and worse case scenario takes out esper/jeskai control's manland wincons in the unlikely event I haven't killed them before they get a chance to use them.
I don't think this sb slot could be put to better use.
April 9, 2015 4:52 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #7
But worst case scenario you aren't boarding it in. Against Jeskai it's just terrible.
Against Infect I strongly advise against it. You need more stalling effects, not conditionally useful cards.
Against Karn it seems alright. That said, you could just counter him or discard spell him. If you're playing Naya or subgroups of those colors, Tron is probably a good matchup anyway.
April 9, 2015 4:55 p.m.
You got me there. I only board it in around 8% of the time. I'm still not sure how else to deal with Karn or infect in lieu of. Considering half my deck is already stalling.
April 9, 2015 5:20 p.m.
I find myself naming Oblivion Stone more often than Karn Liberated when I use Pithing Needle against Tron, personally. Probably because I play Bogles and it's a lot easier to rebuild from a Karn -3 (it can't hit my creatures anyway) than an O-Stone boardwipe.
And come on, Needle doesn't stink. A card that shuts down planeswalkers, manlands, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Arcbound Ravager and many other threats for a measly 1 colorless mana can't be bad. Of course, it's not the definitive answer against any of those threats, but it does buy you some time and forces opponents to board in their artifact hate, which is more than enough to justify its sideboard slots.
Phyrexian Revoker, on the other hand, is downright terrible. Costs more, hits less stuff, dies to everything... I guess it's okay if you really need to shut down a mana dork or something.
April 9, 2015 5:33 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #10
Pithing Needle is better, I have one that can be found using Trinket Mage. Normally a good time, and it's a great multi-purpose sideboard card.
April 9, 2015 5:52 p.m.
selesvyaloverer8 says... #11
the problem with ur argument square is that it only shuts down part of those decks. if you only shut down ravager then u can still die to a cranial plating on a vault skirge, you can name kiki jiki but they still hit u with a twinned deceiver exarch. O stone and other destroy board wipes are why you play totem armor enchantments so its really not good against any of those decks. its good against cards not decks.
April 9, 2015 5:55 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #12
Revoker can screw over mana dorks, but I really don't think they are playable at all in modern. You need them in legacy, but modern has too much removal, and not strong enough activated abilities.
April 9, 2015 5:56 p.m.
selesvyaloverer8: but are there really any cards that shut down the aforementioned decks completely? Even if you can somehow keep Tron from winning the game with Karn or O-Stone, they still have Wurmcoil Engine. Even if you try to play Torpor Orb against Twin, they can still counter it, or bounce it back with Cryptic Command. There are very few cards that shut down an entire deck, and I can think of only one that wins games on the spot against multiple archetypes (Leyline of Sanctity). Pithing Needle is a card that only partly solves your problems, but it solves a whole lot of them. I play it in most of my decks for its versatility and it has rarely let me down.
JexInfinite: eh, I was joking when I talked about shutting down mana dorks. No way anyone would play a card for that purpose only.
April 9, 2015 6:20 p.m.
KillDatBUG says... #14
"There are very few cards that shut down an entire deck." - square711
Someone forgot about the existence of Blood Moon.
April 9, 2015 6:31 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #16
square711 That's why Revoker is good in legacy, because you can shut down mana dorks to prevent Elves from getting out of hand.
Modern is not legacy, though, so there is a lot less merit to it.
April 9, 2015 6:51 p.m.
A deck without an answer to blood moon is a poorly constructed deck to begin with.
April 9, 2015 7:33 p.m.
Can you name a T1 deck that dies to blood moon outright? I can't.
April 9, 2015 7:41 p.m.
You know what? Forget that last comment. It sounded belligerent and it's not my intention to start a mean spirited argument. How I should have worded it is: most viable and consistently winning decks have some way around bloodmoon. Some sideboard cards are so prevalent, it is rather shortsighted to not have a plan for them.
April 9, 2015 7:51 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #21
Pithing Needle bad? Are you serious GlistenerAgent? It's versatility is insane and is well worth a spot or two in so many sideboards it ain't even funny.
April 13, 2015 7:21 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #23
Oh, realized I didn't respond to PValBlanc's comment.
Not trying to be belligerent, sorry about that. :) If you say that a deck is bad because it can't beat Blood Moon, you're letting things interfere with your deckbuilding that shouldn't. Everyone has a way to counter or discard Blood Moon, but the thing is those answers come with your deck. The only reason you should be out to specifically answer Blood Moon is if it stops your deck from winning the game.
April 13, 2015 7:30 p.m.
Worded like that, I can certainly agree with you GlistenerAgent I never meant to imply that blood moon will never make your game painful :p
April 13, 2015 8:40 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #25
Yes it's bad in legacy but not modern? I can't speak for legacy but it's put in a lot of work in modern for me GlistenerAgent.
April 14, 2015 12:50 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #26
No, the other way around. It's very good in Legacy, but there are much better options in pretty much any deck in Modern. What deck do you play it in? What matchups does it come in against?
April 14, 2015 6:24 a.m.
DarkMagician says... #27
Birds With Swords is the deck I run it in and I bring it in more for certain cards rather than archetypes.
To name a few
April 14, 2015 8:26 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #28
You don't need to beat Liliana of the Veil in your deck with 27 creatures and no cards in hand. It can hurt, but you probably shouldn't board it in.
Needling Karn is probably the best use in the format. I'll give you that one.
Needling manlands is unexciting. Every deck with manlands has other ways to kill you, and you don't want deadish cards against controlling decks, Infect or Affinity.
If you're Needling an Ooze, you're definitely doing it wrong. Don't board in Needle against Abzan, because in that matchup all your cards need to guaranteed do something.
Stony Silence does better against Affinity in general and against Ravager.
Generally, there's always a better card. When you limit your options by playing one color, it's less so, but still probably the case if you look hard enough.
April 14, 2015 9:02 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #29
@GlistenerAgent A near empty hand is one of the things that make Liliana of the Veil a pain for my deck. To often she's played and I'm forced to discard Path to Exile since it's the only card I tend to keep in hand leaving me with no answer for the follow up Tarmogoyf. Pathless against a Goyf is not a good place for my deck to be since dealing with an 8/9 with combat damage alone is nearly impossible. The other issue I've had is with her forcing me to get rid of my Sword just in time for me to top deck my third land.
- "Needling manlands is unexciting. Every deck with manlands has other ways to kill you, and you don't want deadish cards against controlling decks, Infect or Affinity."
Actually using Pithing Needle against man lands is quite effective since I can often neutralize 4 threats with it for just one mana. Saying that it's a bad idea because they have other threats besides the manlands is a dead argument, following that line of thinking using a Path to Exile is pointless because they'll just play another threat. And control tends to rely heavily upon manlands as their beatsticks.
- "If you're Needling an Ooze, you're definitely doing it wrong."
An alteration to the deck that hasn't been posted on here yet is the inclusion of an Academy Ruins to get back my equipment and I main deck Sword of Light and Shadow to get back creatures since my creatures die so easily in combat and Scavenging Ooze shuts both of these tricks down. Add to that the fact that my graveyard quickly fills up with creatures and the relevance of Needle against Scooze is pretty apparent.
- "Stony Silence does better against Affinity in general and against Ravager."
It also shuts down my equipment and two Steel Overseers i recently added to the main.
On a side note Pithing Needle tends to draw hate and any spell wasted on the Needle is one more spell my Swords don't have to worry about.
Overall I think you're underestimating the utility of Pithing Needle.
April 15, 2015 1:06 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #30
Oh yeah. Darn.
Well, in your highly specific, generally Tier 2 deck Pithing Needle is a viable option. Hooray. Not in the rest of the format, though.
April 15, 2015 4:35 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #31
In most decks there are better options, if I were running more lands there are even a few other options in my color, but for my deck it's a pretty good fit. There are plenty of other decks that can utilize the card as well though in my opinion. Does my deck count as tier two considering it's never played? Lol
PValBlanc says... #2
First off there is a major difference in that pithing needle hits lands. I side it in to shut down Inkmoth Nexus. Revoker can't do that. Also, revoker can be killed with damage or artifact hate. Pithing needle is only susceptible to artifact hate so needle has the edge there.
If you're looking to shut down an activated ability, needle takes the cake. Revoker is cool if you really need the board presence I guess.
April 9, 2015 4:42 p.m.