Shifting Modern Meta
Modern forum
Posted on Nov. 5, 2014, 7:34 p.m. by aeonstoremyliver
So I had this great idea when I saw Monestary Swiftpear and Treasure Cruise, "Hey, so 
/
/x Delver just became good again!" And I made a decklist. Since good cards exist in this vacuum of a format, other folks had the same idea and have been in the Top 8 of various large, competitive events. I can't take credit, but am glad I saw what other good players did.
In any case, //x Delver/Pyromancer is a new contender of top tier decks in the format (see TCGPlayer recent events for source and decklists). Oh, Scapeshift also won an event, Jeskai Control, Blue Moon and Mono Tron placed Top 8 as well.
Personally, I like the shift in the meta, as it allows for a varied, healthy one. What are your thoughts on the matter? What new sideboard strategies will you implement? What does this do to the other popular decks in the meta such as Affinity, Pod, Twin, 8 Rack, RDW/Burn, Gruul Tron, etc.? And does Naya Big Zoo even have a chance?
I can't disagree... but I also can't agree.
Which I would prefer would depend on the deck I am playing, and turn I am on.
Turn 1, 2 or 3 Ponder > Treasure Cruise
Turn 1 Ancestral Vision > Treasure Cruise... Turn 2 or 3 they are about equal in preference. (an in cascade I would prefer it be in the Library)
Turn 1 or 2 Preordain > Treasure Cruise
Also, there are only a few decks which can fully take advantage of the Delve (all decks 'can' take advantage of it, but to make it cost 1 on T4... only a few can do it regularly)
This is once again comparable to running Tarmogoyf... only a few decks work well with it's ability... others will always work with it, but not as well/fas/consistently.
November 7, 2014 4:29 p.m.
Bad players complain about cards being op and call for bannings...yes glistener im calling you out. Its a 8 mana draw 3 that requires you to do a whole bunch of stuff before hand for it to be effective. Delver decks are rampant, but they are running 8 to 12 cards that do nothing but draw them a card and fill their yard...aka, no interaction with the opponent. I think wizards did an amazing job with both cruise and dig. It has opened the floodgate in the meta, and allowed players to look deeper than mtgtop8 once again. What people don't realize is that cruise is teaching the aggro / burn players to play faster and teaching the control / mid range players to play more efficient. Anybody calling for a banning of a 8 cmc common that is a sorcery should pick another hobby or learn to play properly. The card is very strong in the right hands and that is what makes the game fun. You dont want to get better at your craft? Want everyone in the classroom to receive that star because they showed up? Shut up and settle down. Both cards were designed perfectly and I welcome them into the meta. As for drs unbanning, I will welcome that too
November 7, 2014 4:39 p.m.
You may be able to cast Treasure Cruise for one eventually. However GlistenerAgent, your argument falls short when you realize that Treasure Cruise is not castable right away.
You have to build up cards in the yard, which requires a lot of cheap cards to achieve; other decks, like Twin hope to win on turn four whereas I hope to draw three cards on turn three and then beat face with some delvers.
Comparing cruise to cards like Ponder is ridiculous, it cannot be cast reliably early and has NO DECK MANIPULATION.
Personally I think Treasure Cruise is very strong, however I think it is a strong card in a format with many equally strong cards.
Let the meta shake for a bit, people will begin siding grave hate and a very healthy meta will result.
November 7, 2014 4:49 p.m.
You delver worshippers just wait for Volcanic Fallout and Illness in the Ranks to be sideboard staples.
November 7, 2014 5 p.m.
Dealing with Treasure Cruise is so easy that I didn't have to change my sideboard at all. I already play graveyard hate, like many decent Modern decks do.
Personally, I like Dig Through Time way more, Treasure Cruise is just more popular among decks that don't care what they draw, as long as they draw something.
I'm bored of facing Izzet Delver, personally, but I have pretty consistently beat it so far. I don't even play a tier deck. The new Delver is strong because Delver of Secrets Flip and Young Pyromancer do most of the work.
November 8, 2014 12:39 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #7
A lot of arguments are:
Cruise is OP
Cruise is not OP
Both of these arguments have their merits, but when you consider that over 20% of the meta uses Delve, and that it makes T1 strategies like Scapeshift and Twin better, while making a T2 deck, Delver, into the dominant deck, and also hosing Tarmogoyf, you will see that Cruise is a problem.
What's a powerful card? Tarmogoyf. Are there any responses to it? Hell yes. There are so many removal spells in the format, yet very few ways to actually stop Cruise's effect outside of blue. Spirit of the Labyrinth would be an option, but it literally dies to everything. Another example of a card which you just can't stop is Bloodbraid Elf. If you don't counter it, the opponent just gets so much value. It's also currently on the ban list, like Cruise should be very shortly.
November 8, 2014 2:22 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #8
I think that Dig Through Time is a wonderful card, because while it's certainly powerful, it's not splashable in something like RDW, and it's not something where 'If you can't beat it, join it'.
Treasure Cruise is an example of what shouldn't happen with cards. If you're not playing Cruise, you're at a disadvantage, basically, as it plows through your deck, gaining you ridiculous amounts of value.
November 8, 2014 2:25 a.m.
good card but not broken,i just dont play 8 rack that much and i am playing tokens more....
November 17, 2014 6:01 a.m.
JexInfinite - I don' think Treasure Cruise hoses Tarmogoyf, decks running it don't rely on the opponents graveyard helping him out, it's just a bonus. In 90% of the games I've played it's never made a difference to his P/T.
Cruise is counterable spell, so is just as vulnerable as any other non-creature spell in the format asides from the non-counterable ones like Abrupt Decay (super powerful, kills 90% of the permanents in the format, is played in legacy also, you could argue this should also be banned also for similar reasons)
It is also not a guarantee you get 3 awesome cards, they could be 3 lands for all you know.
It is very splashable, I will give you that, the single U casting cost does that. But implying all decks will run it is a bit daft as it will make other decks less reliable due to their splash, which may also be why delver has performed better in some places due to some people weakening their decks to force cruise into it.
The fact it turns a T2 deck into a potential T1 deck is a good thing in my opinion. It's good that wizards have printed a card that changes the format, otherwise we end up sitting around playing the same decks all the time, which frankly is a little boring. It also means modern is a more accessible format as UR Delver is not an overly expensive deck to get into compared to say, playing Jund or UWR control which cost a ridiculous amount of money.
20% of the Meta is Delve currently because cruise has turned it into a viable deck, so people are testing it out, it's not going to sit like this forever, or at least it won't in my opinion. It doesn't turn delver into an unbeatable deck, just makes it more reliable as you can refill your hand, and delvers no.1 problem was running out of steam.
Can we just stop complaining about cruise, if it really does warp the format that much, wizards will notice and ban it accordingly. Until that time, accept it exists and just learn to play against delver.
November 17, 2014 6:32 a.m.
This conversation is pretty much over. Delver didn't dominate the latest GP. Neither did treasure cruise as a whole. Let this die. The proof of the pudding is in the eating (this means the outcome of an argument is determined by what happens later, not by theory). The GP gave us an insight and quite firmly showed us that neither treasure cruise nor delver are ridiculously prevalent. The end.
November 17, 2014 8:45 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #12
What non-grave hate SB cards have people been running?
Ratchet Bomb Slaughters both Flipped Delvers & Pyromancer Tokens.
November 17, 2014 10:21 a.m.
I think (don't quote me on this) that Pyroclasm is becoming popular.
November 17, 2014 12:04 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #14
Pyroclasm is becoming popular in Scapeshift decks at the very least. It's very strong against Delver, and I wouldn't be surprised if you told me other decks have been playing it as well.
November 17, 2014 2:50 p.m.
untranslated says... #15
I feel TC and Ancestral vision should be swopped on the ban list.Sure you can turn 1 AV and wait 4 turns and draw the cards, but what makes cruise so much more powerfull is the fact that you can chain more than one, which visions if you draw another visions it will be a few turns before you draw the cards, at which point it might be too late. With TC you can turn 4 draw 3 into 1 cantrip+tc+1land and at turn 6 or even sometimes 5 draw another 3. Sequences like that make it extremely difficult for decks without access to counterspells to compete. Delver is definitely beatable and as a BW tokens player i actually like the delver dominance since its a good matchup for me, so is scapeshift, and pod getting worse means i dont really need to have 4x Mirran Crusader mainboard. But i do feel like treasure cruise is on a extremely high power level and should be banned, purely based off the fact that you end up with metagame with really just a ton of primary or splash blue, and things like relic of progentiusx3 mainboard. Alot of tier2/3 stratagies are becoming near unplayable due to the amount of hate cards against UR delver. If they dont ban TC they should at least ban serum visions, or unban AV and move TC into its slot to make it fair, because honestly UR delver is fun to play and cheapish to build.
December 10, 2014 7:33 a.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #16
The shift in the meta has actually helped my deck. Fleet's Faeries destroys U/R delver really hard, don't really need to sideboard anything. Cavern of Souls and AEther Vial are both mainboard cards in my deck, so the counterspells are useless, if they try to bolt my faeries, I can use Scion of Oona or Quickling to save them, and once I have enough mana (or charge counters on my AEther Vial), I control the game with Mistbind Clique. If you have the money to drop on that kind of deck, it will win you a lot of games in the current meta, let me tell you! Vendilion Clique can move those Treasure Cruise to the bottom of their library.
December 10, 2014 1:52 p.m.
selesvyaloverer8 says... #18
Lightning Bolt is played in 38% of the decks in the meta compared to the 21% playing Treasure Cruise. I think Lightning Bolt is warping the format. Lets ban it
December 10, 2014 5:08 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #19
I wish people would stop canonizing mtgtop8.com.
December 10, 2014 5:09 p.m.
I wish people would stop determining what must be healthy for the format based on whether or not their deck has a good matchup against the new most played deck. And i also wish this thread would die the death it deserves
December 10, 2014 5:26 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #21
Lightning Bolt SHOULD be banned from modern. Why does WotC think this card is fair? If the card was strictly worded to target JUST creatures, the card would not seem as broken. I understand red needs creature removal, but what I see WAY too often is people don't do anything on their turn, wait for their opponents' end of turn, then hit their creatures if they're any good, otherwise just bolt to the face. This is NOT a clever tactic, since every poor sap and his grandma use it. It would be way more discouraging if you didn't have that option of bolt to the face, because then you'd be banking on the fact that your opponent is even playing creatures. Or maybe as a balancing drawback, make it so that you can only bolt to the face as a sorcery.
December 11, 2014 1:41 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #22
Well the other Bolt to the Face cards are sorcery. Lava Spike Rift Bolt or 
December 11, 2014 1:55 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #24
APPLE01DOJ: That's what I mean. As an instant that gives you choice between creature or player, it's too good. It would be fine if it was the same thing, but a sorcery instead, or maybe 2 cmc instead of 1, or just creature or player. It's too versatile of a 1st turn card. Deathrite Shaman is another example of almost the same thing. DRS gives you so many options, ultimately EVERYONE ended up running a playset in their modern decks. Basically, anyone who runs red, you can GUARANTEE that they have a playset of Lightning Bolt.
December 11, 2014 3:21 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #26
What options did Deathrite Shaman really provide turn 1?
December 11, 2014 5:05 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #27
@Fleetwood-Mat Again, bad troll is bad.
@APPLE01DOJ T2 Liliana of the Veil, and plenty of tears from the other side of the table. Also, it's just really good.
December 11, 2014 5:16 p.m.
How many pillars of the format can we ban? Who's up for the challenge?
December 11, 2014 5:17 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #29
I am not a terribly good Magic player, I will totally admit that. I can build but can't play.
That being said, Treasure Cruise has single handily made me appear far better than I am.
While it is helping me win, feel good, stroke myself off etc.....
IT IS SO BUSTED. Beyond Busted. The First Time I have ever thought about Banning a card since I got back into the game a few years ago....
I quit after Homelands..... I know, I am elderly. Way too easy to manipulate - Dig Through Time may appear more broken but Jeez....
Library of Alexandria Dark Ritual Demonic Tutor --- I don't want to see it go.... but it's going to drive the price of Rakdos Charm up to 15 bucks. JK
December 11, 2014 5:25 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #30
December 11, 2014 5:28 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #31
One does not simply play Treasure Cruise in Grixis control.
December 11, 2014 5:32 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #32
? Explain -
And I am not doubting you - I am just stating my observations.
I told you I am not a good player
December 11, 2014 5:34 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #33
Sorry, didn't mean to come off as a jerk there.
As a control deck, you are very likely better off playing Dig Through Time instead of Treasure Cruise, as you've got a wide variety of cards, where Delver really has three: lands, burn spells, counterspells.
December 11, 2014 5:36 p.m.
You also need to be playing LOADS of 1 and 2 mana cards to make it worth it. Grimsby often wants 3 and 4 mana stuff like sweepers and cryptic command. Somewhat incompatible in a lot of cases.
December 11, 2014 5:38 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #35
Oh I agree with that. Dig Through Time can snag your Cruel Ultimatum or Whatever. But it's conditional to control, at least that's my take. Treasure Cruise is just 16 dollars cheaper lol. But I would never even consider dig through time in a fast deck. It would be a horrible play, agree 100%
But tossing in a card just because a deck has blue.... JTMS did that and it sucked
And no not coming off like a jerk at all
: )
December 11, 2014 5:43 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #36
Please bear with me on something a little off topic but maybe relevant.
And I was all proud of myself when I thought to do it lol
What do you guys think of this? It's a small thing but a thing.
Thought Scour or Whatever draw 2 discard 1 card into Treasure Cruise
December 11, 2014 5:48 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #37
It's great that you thought of it yourself. It's played in small numbers in Delver, but I wouldn't play it in a pure control deck. You can be doing better things with your nonland cards. You can still play Mana Leak.
December 11, 2014 5:56 p.m.
Why on earth did my phone autocorrect grixis to Grimsby.
December 11, 2014 6:29 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #39
GlistenerAgent: I have no idea what "bad troll is bad" means. Is that what you scream out loud when you're petting yourself heavily?
It's getting to the point now where you don't see creatures anymore, all you get to see is a guy tapping mountains for Rift Bolt, Lightning Bolt, and islands for Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time. Then they go ahead and in their intro packs, they put instructions that tell players to "make sure you have about 20 creatures" in their decks. Why? So you can get slaughtered by all the vultures who run 0 creatures? Honestly, from now on, I'm going to just run Tome Scour, Surgical Extraction and Extirpate until I get an Ashiok out or something. Even Elixir of Immortality is undermined by the fact that every deck that runs Lightning Bolt also run Skullcrack. Really, the reason I'm making this point is because for a long time, nearly all tier 1 decks have been running red (except Melira Pod), and where is pod now?
December 11, 2014 7:07 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #41
Would you say that your experience against Burn decks in the Modern format has caused you significant mental trauma?
December 11, 2014 7:18 p.m.
Guys! Have you sen dis new broke card?! Dis so called Thoughtseize? It is completely BRokE!!! It makes my herp derp win by turn 9 Borborygmos ramp deck completely unviable! Ban plz.
December 11, 2014 7:46 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #44
Wait... Did someone just suggest banning Lightning Bolt?! Shut the front door.
GlistenerAgent I enjoy causing mental trauma casting 16 ish Lightning Bolts in Red Deck Wins. I like toast.
December 11, 2014 7:53 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #45
GlistenerAgent Games don't cause trauma, but bullies do... hint hint...
I don't know why you think I'm a troll when you're the one trolling me and my posts. I feel really bad for you and anyone who interacts with you. Just waiting for some "fresh blood" to stroll into the tappedout boards so you can show them what's what... well I've been using tappedout for nearly two years, and I gotta say... if this is what the community has to offer people who are new to the forums, that's a little sad. You know, Magic is supposed to be a game that accepts everyone, regardless of what their opinions and ideas are, not a place to be ridiculed and bullied. I've only started using the forums last week, and I think I might pass from now on.
December 11, 2014 7:59 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #46
When you throw them back I cease to feel bad for you.
December 11, 2014 8:03 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #47
GlistenerAgent Feel bad for me? So when someone is bullying another person, and the person being bullied all of a sudden throws a punch, it changes from a bullying to a fight? NO... YOU replied to MY posts, attacking MY ideas, MY thoughts with immature nonsense like "bad trolls are bad" (whatever that means), and "Would you say that your experience against Burn decks in the Modern format has caused you significant mental trauma?"... I only jabbed at you in jest to make it clear you're being a bully and I'm not going to be bullied, but you continued to persist. I'm not trying to make you "feel bad" for me, I'm just trying to make you take a serious look at your own personality, because even though I'm stable, what do you think will happen if you pull the same stuff with someone who suffers from depression and suicidal tendencies? If you don't care about the potential repercussions, you are probably just a psychopath.
December 11, 2014 8:27 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #48
Fleetwood-Mat I think that deck would be good with some Glimpse the Unthinkable too.
December 11, 2014 8:31 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #49
Fleetwood-Mat (cool user name, btw; Peter Green is a great picker) Relax man. It's all good, really. Just please understand how ridiculous calling for a ban of Lightning Bolt sounds, no matter how you put it. I believe that this sort of suggestion puts you in a position to get attention, due to the redunkulous nature of your statement.
Imagine if I suggested we ban Wasteland and Force of Will on Legacy because they're too potent. Kind of a similar suggestion. Eternal formats exist to exhibit and exploit the potent nature of cards printed in past eras. Lightning Bolt just so happens to be one of the best spells ever printed and is a staple alongside Path to Exile, Remand, Abrupt Decay, and so forth in Modern.
December 11, 2014 8:32 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #50
GlistenerAgent Agreed
Yup. When nerdy Magic kids start bullying each other they turn into Columbine kids.
I hate that rubbish. It's worse than arguing with a Christian or a hockey fan.
"I fuckin love cardboard rectangles bro. I'll kick your ass"
GlistenerAgent says... #1
How about this:
When compared to Ponder, Treasure Cruise draws two more cards.
When compared to Preordain, Treasure Cruise draws two more cards.
When compared to Ancestral Vision, Treasure Cruise gets you the cards faster most of the time assuming you have been fetching and casting spells reasonably.
You can't compare Treasure Cruise to Jace, the Mind Sculptor because it's like comparing apples and oranges.
I honestly would rather draw 3 than look at three and draw 1. Let me know if you disagree.
November 7, 2014 4:16 p.m.