Shifting Modern Meta
Modern forum
Posted on Nov. 5, 2014, 7:34 p.m. by aeonstoremyliver
So I had this great idea when I saw Monestary Swiftpear and Treasure Cruise, "Hey, so 
/
/x Delver just became good again!" And I made a decklist. Since good cards exist in this vacuum of a format, other folks had the same idea and have been in the Top 8 of various large, competitive events. I can't take credit, but am glad I saw what other good players did.
In any case, //x Delver/Pyromancer is a new contender of top tier decks in the format (see TCGPlayer recent events for source and decklists). Oh, Scapeshift also won an event, Jeskai Control, Blue Moon and Mono Tron placed Top 8 as well.
Personally, I like the shift in the meta, as it allows for a varied, healthy one. What are your thoughts on the matter? What new sideboard strategies will you implement? What does this do to the other popular decks in the meta such as Affinity, Pod, Twin, 8 Rack, RDW/Burn, Gruul Tron, etc.? And does Naya Big Zoo even have a chance?
Fleetwood-Mat says... #2
GlistenerAgent I'm sorry man, I didn't mean to offend you if I did, I was just trying to get a laugh.
December 14, 2014 9:15 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #3
The arguments that happen over modern bannings are so much fun to read.
I respect most of you, but seriously? I'm sure we can all find a way to play around things like Cruise and Bolt.
I'd like to point out that in the 2014 scg legacy finals, treasure cruise resolved three times in two games, and that player went 0-2. Granted, that's legacy, but still, this shiz isn't really worth the ban hammer. Heck, if this is supposedly worth being banned, why isn't Goyf worth it too? A turn two 5/6 or 4/5 is scary, and how on earth are you supposed to deal with that once it hits the board?
Like somebody said a couple pages ago, eternal formats didn't get a whole lot of good cards in the last couple of sets, and as soon as we get some great cards, everybody goes bonkers. Ever heard of graveyard hate? Also, drawing three cards doesn't do anything if you have a trash deck. It's good in good decks.
I think we all need to calm down a little.
December 15, 2014 2:06 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #4
Those hate cards are pretty ineffective outside Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void. Delver can fill the yard back up, quick. It consistently Cruises on Turn 3 anyway, often with an extra untapped land to Spell Pierce or Spell Snare counter plays. It gets ahead and stays ahead in cards with astounding speed and consistency.
If Ancestral Vision is banned, then perhaps Cruise should be considered for the same after due time. If it remains unbanned, then Vision should perhaps have its ban lifted, since it is in most instances markedly worse than Treasure Cruise.
December 15, 2014 3:33 a.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #5
Tarmogoyf isn't so scary, the only reason it's worth so much is because it sneaks past lightning bolts and pounds face. It still gets beaten by most 2 cmc removal spells (abrupt decay, go for the throat, smallpox, doom blade...). Let's put it this way, Goyf isn't worth what it's worth if bolt is banned... reason being because players elect to go with bolt over other removal because it doubles as a player burn card. If your opponent isn't playing creatures, then it is still an overpowered card, which can't be said for any of the spells I mentioned. Smallpox I guess is still useful against a creatureless deck because it gets land and discard as well, but it works against all players, so you have to sac and discard as well. Either way, Bolt is just as powerful removal as it is straight burn, therefore everyone plays it. Not too many turn 2 creatures can survive a bolt, goyf is one of the few that do, and it's not like Nyx-Fleece Ram because it actually can do damage. If bolt was not modern legal, players would still run removal, but you'd probably see the meta shifting more towards black because beyond bolt, black has all the best removal. Thing is, you gotta use it AS removal, and if you're not facing creatures, those cards become dead in your hand.
December 16, 2014 1:57 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #6
Well that was ridiculously entertaining. Fleetwood-Mat, please stop saying Lightning Bolt should be banned. No, I'm not going to repeat the arguments already given, I can see that it's a lost cause. I'm with Ohthenoises on this one, everyone needs to keep calm and magic on.
December 16, 2014 5:11 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #9
They tried banning Island back in old days because blue was too imbalanced. Only reason to ban Mountain right now is Lightning Bolt. You all don't seem to understand. Name a 1 cmc card that is more versatile (or better) than bolt... The only one in modern is banned (and is not even that much better than bolt); Ancestral Vision, the others aren't even modern; Dark Ritual and Ancestral Recall (which is banned even in Vintage).
Yup... you guys are right, Lightning Bolt is not overpowered at all, because it's still not better than vision, recall and dark ritual... if they were playable in modern.
December 17, 2014 2:36 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat What about Deathrite Shaman? There's also Brainstorm. And Bolt is way better than Ancestral Vision. Yes I know both DRS and Brainstorm aren't Modern legal but Bolt is a fair card. It's a 1 for 1 removal spell with upside. There's nothing remotely broken about it.
December 17, 2014 2:47 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #11
I have an easy one that's more versatile than Lightning Bolt; Thoughtseize. It's also modern legal.
December 17, 2014 3:08 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #12
Now can we please, for the love of fuck, STOP this godawful discussion?
December 17, 2014 3:09 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat - I have to agree with everyone else here. If you remove Lightning Bolt you are removing one of the reasons to play Red. With out Bolt, what are you running red for? Splinter Twin decks get going because they have some early permission and Bolt to keep the board under control until they can combo out. Scapeshift would probably still exist because Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle is still strong. However some of their best removal now gets removed, making their matchup against aggro decks (Delver, Zoo, Affinity, etc.) much worse.
What you're suggesting would not only radically change the Modern format, but it would effectively neuter Red decks from even being playable.
December 17, 2014 3:14 p.m.
Hickorysbane says... #14
So...just checked out the first three and the last two pages...and there doesn't seem to be any difference. Guys at this point it's got the same effect as squeezing blood from a turnip. And predicting what will happen is like herding cats. And this post is like squashing water, because there's no point except because I have nothing better to do right now than spout off mildly amusing metaphores for useless that I just googled.
December 17, 2014 3:52 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #15
Thoughtseize is useless if it's late game and you're coming down to top deck, and is ENTIRELY situational. Bolt is WAY more versatile and WAY more broken. Brainstorm is amazing, yes, but arguably not more so than bolt, and is banned in most formats and restricted in the rest.... and I'll tell you why it's ARGUABLY not better than bolt:
-You can miss (which is entirely possible and even probable)-You are still forced to keep cards you may not want on top of your library-It is strictly a control card (while bolt can be control OR aggro)-If it was modern legal, it would really only be used to get Lightning Bolt, a counter or a win con like Scapeshift, the option is nice, but most players would rather skip paying the 1 blue and just draw right into a bolt-It's still only 1 mana for 1 card draw, which is the same value you get for Reach Through Mists, but because you can choose from the top 3 cards in your deck, you're more likely to get what you need (which is why it's banned)-It doesn't stop your opponents from playing cards like Dark Confidant, Phyrexian Arena, or Bitterblossom unless you use it to get a bolt
Radical change is what's needed. I'm not saying they need to ban Liliana of the Veil or Scapeshift (cards that actually come from modern sets), I'm saying they need to ban Lightning Bolt, which is a card from ALPHA (the very first MTG set ever printed), and if you're not going to do that, then at least reprint Counterspell and Circle of Protections to be playable in modern, because those cards were bolt's balance back then, and why shouldn't they be now?
December 17, 2014 4:25 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #16
I think we need to start a new thread about how Brainstorm is better than you think it is. In no way is it comparable to Reach Through Mists.
December 17, 2014 4:35 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat - Did you just say Brainstorm is worse than Lightning Bolt? Are you still talking about the same Brainstorm that is restricted in Vintage and a 4 of in EVERY BLUE LEGACY DECK? Brainstorm, a card they tried to "fix" by making Ponder, which is just as strong as Brainstorm? They made a "fixed" Lightning Bolt in Shock, but no one is going to say that Shock is better than Lightning Bolt. Also, Lightning Bolt was printed in M10, so it is Modern legal. And furthermore, are you saying that Giant Growth should be banned as well? It's from Alpha, might as well ban it.
I could keep going on, but if you honestly think that Brainstorm is weaker than Lightning Bolt we can't help you.
December 17, 2014 4:39 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #18
Naw, we all know why it's banned. I'm just saying that as far as using it for quantity advantage, it only gets you one card, so that's not the broken part of the card. The reasons it's broken are the same reasons bolt is broken (because it's an instant with uncanny versatility and it only costs 1 mana)... same reason Thoughtseize is far from broken. Basically, it comes down to the fact that if it's 1 mana, and it can be cast at the end of your opponents' turn, the power level needs to be severely toned down. Now, obviously, first turn: scalding tarn, wait 'til your opponent's end step, if he casts a creature, bolt it, if he doesn't do anything, bolt him, if he tries to gain card advantage, brainstorm for a counterspell... Too many options for the end of your opponent's first turn.
December 17, 2014 4:46 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #19
No one in their right mind Brainstorms at the end of their opponent's first turn.
Also, what do you think the point of an instant is?
I will point out that Brainstorm is unique in that you get to put cards back on top of your deck, then potentially shuffle away the bad ones with fetchlands and such. It's a lot more than net one card in most cases.
December 17, 2014 4:50 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat - Clearly you don't know why Brainstorm or Ponder are broken, if you think Brainstorm is broken because it's an instant. What it sounds like to me is that you got butt-hurt sometime by Lighting Bolt or some other instant during your turn and you want to stop that. At this point you HAVE to be trolling us, so I say good day!
December 17, 2014 4:50 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #21
JWiley129 No, you should read what I wrote. I said "ARGUABLY" (note the quotations and caps this time so you don't miss the point again). And yes, it is ARGUABLE because every red deck in Modern runs 4 Lightning Bolt, and in certain cases, some decks run red ONLY for Lightning Bolt. The point was comparing the level of imbalance between those two cards (according to their respective formats). Legacy players aren't worried about people running Brainstorm because it's a format full of first turn kills and Force of Will and whatnot. There are things much more concerning in legacy than Brainstorm and Ponder.
We're talking about Modern here, and the only two cards mentioned so far that come close to the power level of Lightning Bolt for the cost are Path to Exile and Thoughtseize, and yet both of those cards are like infinitely more situational, and don't even come close to the power level of bolt, and to further boot, have drawbacks that bolt doesn't have... and that's completely understandable because neither of those cards were printed in ALPHA.
As for banning Giant Growth, I'm ALL for it. I think every card originally from a vintage set should be dead and gone by now. The only cards I've EVER condoned reprints of from vintage/legacy are the Onslaught fetches, and that's because I think fetches are an integral part of the modern format, as well as the shocks. If they want to reprint vintage or legacy cards for play only in vintage or legacy, that's fine by me. Vintage Masters is a great set in MTGO, they should consider doing something along those lines on paper cards.
December 17, 2014 5:12 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #22
You guys seriously don't seem to know what "trolling" is.
I'm coming up with valid points, valid arguments, and logical reasons to support my opinions. That's not trolling, that's discussion/debate. Trolling is when you're posting just to get a rise out of someone else using nonsense and vulgarity. I'm not doing that, I'm sticking to my points, I'm presenting facts and information.
Sure, I like to debate, and I get into my debates, and sometimes I get carried away, but I'm not trying to get a rise out of any one specific person, I'm not using vulgarity, and I am not offending anyone (I hope). Fact is, I have my opinions as a long time player of Magic, and I'm going to speak my mind regardless of how many people disagree, because it's my right as a human being to verbally debate my opinions.
December 17, 2014 5:25 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #23
Again, the set in which a card was printed has no relation whatsoever to its power level. Black Lotus was printed in Alpha, while Ugin's Nexus was printed in Khans of Tarkir. On the other hand, Gray Ogre was printed in Alpha while Siege Rhino was printed in Khans of Tarkir. No correlation whatsoever.
"There are things much more concerning in Legacy than Brainstorm and Ponder."
There are things much more concerning in Modern than Lightning Bolt. This Jeskai Ascendancy card...
You may be right that there is no one-mana spell in the format on par with Lightning Bolt (which in itself can be debated). However, this does not mean it's too good, it's just very good. If we followed the logic of banning the best card at its CMC, soon everything would be gone. Where do we draw the line? Certainly not at 1-for-1 removal that sometimes goes to the face. It's not powerful enough.
December 17, 2014 5:36 p.m.
So we started this thread with "omg guys let's ban tc it's everywhere" and now we're at "let's ban bolt cuz it's everywhere?" How about we just ban all the good cards, cuz theyre played to much? If you don't like playing with powerful cards, and you don't like seeing similar lists over and over, stay out of modern. It's that simple.
December 17, 2014 5:51 p.m.
Ok Fleetwood-Mat, here's a reason why Brainstorm is more powerful than Lightning Bolt in a way you'll understand. Brainstorm can draw 3 Lightning Bolts and put back 2 unwanted cards, so Brainstorm is at least 3 times as good as Lightning Bolt. Also, there isn't an argument as to which is better, because there IS no argument. Brainstorm is the vastly more powerful card. Furthermore, your fetchland exception is silly. Either you should be all for banning cards from before Mirrodin, or not at all.
December 17, 2014 5:52 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #26
Fleetwood-Mat said:
"As for banning Giant Growth, I'm ALL for it. I think every card originally from a vintage set should be dead and gone by now. The only cards I've EVER condoned reprints of from vintage/legacy are the Onslaught fetches, and that's because I think fetches are an integral part of the modern format, as well as the shocks. If they want to reprint vintage or legacy cards for play only in vintage or legacy, that's fine by me. Vintage Masters is a great set in MTGO, they should consider doing something along those lines on paper cards."
Well I clearly cannot argue with that logic; mostly because it's completely asinine. You're not coming up with logical or valid points. Saying that anything printed in Alpha should never be reprinted is like me saying anything printed in Standard shouldn't be playable in Modern.
December 17, 2014 6:01 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #28
CanadianShinobi again... it is my opinion, and you DON'T have to agree with me. Why is it so mind boggling to people who love to play a game involving numbers and words? Why is it so hard to get across this concept of freedom of opinion and freedom of expression? I know I'm going against the grain here, and I'm glad. I'm glad that I have a different opinion and that people disagree with me, because their opinions and expressions are just as valid as mine. That doesn't mean I'm going to just agree with everything they believe. I mean, it's kind of redundant to try to compare Brainstorm with Lightning Bolt first of all, considering we're talking about modern, and Brainstorm was never even printed in a modern set to begin with. If we were talking about Legacy, sure! But as I stated before, Lightning Bolt isn't a threat in formats that you can play Counterspell and Circle of Protection: Red as well as other much more powerful cards.
GlistenerAgent Well, you're right that it's VERY good... as far as being TOO good, that's again, very debatable. Because clearly it's TOO good for a functional reprint that is EXACTLY the same, which is why there are none. Clearly it's TOO good with Treasure Cruise and Jeskai Ascendancy (which is why they want to ban those cards in modern). So, that statement is really debatable. You're right that it doesn't break the Turn 4 rule, so that's never been the issue. But the issue of whether or not it's "too good" is very very debatable.
December 17, 2014 8:44 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #29
Yes, you're absolutely right, Fleetwood-Mat is is your opinion. But, just because it is your opinion does not mean I am not allowed to point out that you are wrong.
" Why is it so mind boggling to people who love to play a game involving numbers and words? Why is it so hard to get across this concept of freedom of opinion and freedom of expression?"
You see, you are free to express your opinion. I am not repressing your freedom of speech, however, just because you are allowed to express an opinion does not mean I am not allowed to disagree with you. Freedom of expression does not protect you from the consequences that come with speaking. Having an opinion does not make your opinion right, correct or in anyway valid. You said that you have a valid argument. I pointed out that you do not have a valid argument. I also pointed out your argument is silly. I did not say, as you so graciously implied, "You should not have an opinion because fuck you".
All anyone has done is pointed out that your logic is unsound. And that is not simply an opinion, that is a fact. Your logic is unsound. To you, in your opinion it is sound, but opinions are not facts. By the defining rules of what gets banned in Modern, Lightning Bolt does not fit into the category of being banned. Therefore, it is a fact that Lightning Bolt has no basis on which to be banned. You my continue to hold the opinion that it should be banned, but you are wrong in having that opinion. Again, I must emphasize, this is not an attack on your freedom of expression, do not portray it otherwise.
Now, are we done here?
December 17, 2014 9:53 p.m.
robotwalle says... #30
Lets actually talk about the meta now, and not banning cards.
December 17, 2014 10:24 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #32
Jesus Christ, this thread is one nasty train wreck.
Lightning Bolt is a good card.Aggro is currently good.Aggro being good makes midrange good.Control is still technically the best archetype in the format, but nobody is playing it because they are scared of aggro, or it's expensive/too hard to play.
How's that for analysis of the meta? Concise, and it doesn't contain any stupidity.
December 17, 2014 10:37 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #34
Jonathannoob But while your doing that you die to a Delver or Young Pyro and companions. Treasure Cruise can get hated out but graveyard is horrible against the rest of the deck.
December 18, 2014 3:54 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #36
aeonstoremyliver I believe you have opened the can of worms that don't like being wrong.
December 18, 2014 9:02 a.m.
We've thus far seen that burn decks with weak card have become less popular as delver has become more popular. However recently things have stabilised and the meta seem very healthy. There is some zoo. Some midrange pod and abzan. Some affinity. Bit of everything really. The structure of top 8s has changed but if you check the top 16 it all seems to be in order.
December 18, 2014 9:07 a.m.
Sorry I meant to say - burn and aggro decks with weak card draw have suffered due to the rise of those that can refill their hand which are mainly just. .....better.
December 18, 2014 9:29 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #40
I just realised I replied to a comment on the first page. Whoops.
December 18, 2014 9:32 a.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #41
This gets funnier and funnier every time I come back to it.
December 18, 2014 9:59 a.m.
PaladinRyan says... #42
I was unaware of this thread until just now... and dear lord, train wreck can't even describe it. More like the moon crashing into the earth...
In any case I am pleasantly surprised by exactly how healthy the meta right now is. Lightning Bolt is and always will be strong as early removal and burn. In fact, it is more or less a card that keeps the format diverse by preventing aggro decks from becoming too powerful. The ability it gives decks to kill of early threats allows control decks to remain strong and keep aggro decks in check so they don't just lose by default. Would my modern D&T list be stronger if bolt was gone? Yes, as would most aggro and tempo decks that center on small creature based strategies. But modern would be a lesser format for it, less diverse and certainly less fun.
As it stands I don't think there are really any cards needing a ban in modern. If Jeskai Ascendancy finds a way to become more broken then we might have an issue. Lightning Bolt shouldn't come up in the discussion of bans anymore than Path to Exile or Thoughtsieze (which is to say not at all) and I have already said my two cents there. For a while I thought Dig Through Time and/or Treasure Cruise might need a ban for the cheap and fairly reliable card advantage they offered. But the fact is while these cards are good, they are not breaking the format as I initially feared. Perhaps most importantly they can be easily hated on (Dryad Militant, Relic of Progenitus, and Rest in Peace just to name a few my mono white list can make use of) and thus made to be more expensive. All in all I am very happy with the current format. My modern D&T list performs adequately in it for a tier 2 deck and the matchups are usually quite fun and diverse.
December 18, 2014 12:51 p.m.
Lmao, This forum.
Some people just love to get into pissing matches over who's 'meta-brain' is bigger.
Don't ban anything. Just because the top 8 decks are now being dethroned people are getting butthurt because they spent all this money on a deck that's just going to have bad matchup's against decks that run Treasure Cruise
Post SB treasure cruise shouldn't be an issue.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #1
Wic_Uber no it won't, they will ban ascendancy first, then maaaaybe cruise and dig, I'm just saying they got their ban sites set on the wrong targets.
December 14, 2014 9:14 p.m.