So the meta's healthy right?
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 7, 2015, 7:10 a.m. by ChiefBell
I posted this thread basically saying that we have a major problem with modern right now in that the banning of pod just left a void that would hastily be filled by abzan. My concern was basically that we've gone from one deck being overly represented in every event to quite another.
Here's a breakdown of the decks present in the pro tour. Guess how represented Abzan is - go on guess, I dare you!
Reveal answer
30%. Thirty per cent. 30!
Needless to say I am slightly concerned.
Source here
Thoughts?
GlistenerAgent says... #2
The more Abzan wins, the more people will play to beat it. There will be those who say "Hey, I need a deck" and play Abzan, but plenty of people will switch to Tron, Scapeshift or something else to beat it.
There's the argument that Abzan can beat anything it wants to, but that's also the case with lots of other decks. Just tune properly.
February 7, 2015 10:52 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #3
I would be really happy if they unbanned Dig Through Time, it would strengthen Scapeshift and a bunch of the faster combo decks that can prey on Abzan. Delver would also get a boost, but it wouldn't be as good of a deck as it's Treasure Cruise heyday.
Also do you guys think that white weenies could be a viable archetype to combat Abzan. Some creatures like Mirran Crusader and Fiendslayer Paladin can top the curve, and with their protection/first strike they can eat through Abzan decks.
February 7, 2015 11:05 a.m.
Perhaps -- Especially with all the flying tokens white can produce with stuff like Lingering Souls and the like, backed up with stuff like Crusader, Fiendslayer and stuff like Hero of Bladehold or Angel of Jubilation -- Just my two cents (I'm really starting to become an advocate for Mirran Crusader...)
February 7, 2015 11:12 a.m.
I totally agree. The meta does not look healthy. And it will only get worse, I think...
So, what should wizard do? Should they ban Siege Rhino? Then another deck will just show up and dominate the meta. Or, maybe, if they banned the Rhino, then there would be a lot of space for other decks?
Or, what also WotC also could do is, to unban other things, to make fringe deck better. Or, maybe remake the whole banned list? I mean, keep the totally OP cards in it (like Jace maybe), and then unban the rest! I think it could be a pretty diverse meta! Thoughts?
February 7, 2015 11:59 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #7
I think it's really funny that Pod decks basically just took out Pod and some of the utility creature and are still doing very well in the format.
February 7, 2015 12:04 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #8
I think this proves that Wizards needs to start testing sets for Modern. I know it's a hassle, but seriously if they're going to push Modern as much as they are they might want to start taking it seriously and that means testing things.
February 7, 2015 12:46 p.m.
Have all of you watched that tolarian college episode about the banning? I agree like 10000% with that episode.
February 7, 2015 12:49 p.m.
TheGrayMerchant says... #10
I agree that WotC needs to unban cards instead of banning more cards. I would unban some artifact lands, pod, Cloudpost, Dig, Preordain(I think its funny that Serum Visions is legal but not this), and Seething Song.
February 7, 2015 12:51 p.m.
I think the ideal way to go about this would be to print something new, or reprint something. Something that would specifically be intended to be a relevant midrange card OUTSIDE of the abzan colours. Rather than axe something else, likely to disastrous results (again), I'd really be extatic if Wizards took the opposite road of printing answers instead of banning problems. Rhino is good, but rhino is not broken. Goyf is good, but goyf is not broken. They just lack healthy competition for their slots is all.
I know it's unlikely, but I can hope right?
That said I'm a gonna keep playing U-Tron and see where it takes me.
February 7, 2015 12:59 p.m.
Preordain is strictly better than serum visions. It's insanely powerful
February 7, 2015 12:59 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #13
Could someone link that aforementioned Tolarian College video? I can't seem to find it.
ChiefBell maybe?
February 7, 2015 1:11 p.m.
Barry_McKawkinner says... #15
I don't like where modern is right now it's making it difficult for people like me to get in the format.I don't wanna put a bunch of money into a deck and it get banned.then what do I have no deck no money.
February 7, 2015 1:50 p.m.
SpartanCEL says... #16
I think once we figure out what works well against Abzan the meta will be alright, because if sb card A can consistently beat it then everyone will run it, I have no idea what that card could be but hey pod was always sb against so abzan probably will be too. If anything I feel bad for this poor saps daily standard.
So anyone know any good cards to sb against abzan?(in modern I was just looking up standard stuff and found that gem)
February 7, 2015 1:59 p.m.
Barry_McKawkinner - I feel for you. I think a lot of people have lost faith in modern. They're scared to invest because who knows whats going to be hit with that ban hammer in 6 months time. It's not a very nice feeling.
February 7, 2015 2:03 p.m.
asasinater13 says... #19
I feel like Mirran Crusader is good against it but doesn't block for kills against a goyf, or a rhino, it just keeps attacking through. So there needs to be something better than the crusader against removing their creatures, Deathmark, also you mentioned, is good but a sideboard one for one again isn't the thing that's going to unseat the deck.
there need to be a way to kill the creatures in a more than one-for-one way, or block for beneficial against them at a competitive power level, or, other creatures to compete for their spots on curves in different color combos, I would be fine with like, midrange decks taking up 30% of the meta, as long as it's not all one midrange deck.
February 7, 2015 2:16 p.m.
Barry_McKawkinner says... #20
You could use dead drop to get rid of 2 creatures for 1 but it's really situational.keep in mind I have limited knowledge of the game
February 7, 2015 2:36 p.m.
Just to address your concerns about the format ChiefBell I have no clue how old you are, but though I took a lengthy hiatus, I've seen quite a few blows to the game, some rather more critical than this (for instance, the whole necropotence mess). In the end magic pulled through them. So while I share your misgivings, I don't think this will have a long-term lasting effect on the format. It just means the next year or so might be a little off-keel. Wizards have made mistakes before, and I expect they will again. As long as they continue to learn from them, things should work out.
February 7, 2015 3:02 p.m.
I'm 22 and I've been playing modern for about...... 2 years ish. Maybe 2 1/2.
February 7, 2015 3:03 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #24
Yeah ChiefBell I agree for sure, that video just expresses my thoughts on the banning perfectly.
It was a kneejerk reaction to people complaining too hard.
February 7, 2015 3:40 p.m.
Having dusted off my cards during khans, I'm certainly a noob to modern, although I love the format and have been devoting way more time and budget to it then are reasonable :p I am however experienced with wizards screw ups, back when extended was a thing. I'm frustrated for sure. But I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
Anyhow tl;dr: I think our favorite format will be fine in the long run and I talk too much.
February 7, 2015 3:45 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #26
Thanks for the video. And I also have to agree on the majority of the points made about the ban. I was especially interested in their analysis of how the most recent ban has set a dangerous precedent. And hey lo and behold the meta has turned into BGX midrange. Now I'm always aware there is going to be a top deck, but... jesus I have no confidence to play Modern right now. I mean I can throw together a cheap Tron deck and get some use out of Ugin for the hell of it, but why should I? And that's the sad state we're in and the video makes it very clear. Players like us, we're the ones suffering from these knee jerk bans. I liked the line that these bans go against the spirit of Modern. I agree wholeheartedly. I dunno, I guess I'll wait and see where things go, but I hope this nonsense doesn't continue down the road.
February 7, 2015 4:05 p.m.
I know. I'm scared to buy more goyfs and invest in modern because who knows what'll be banned next. I primarily invest at the moment because my BG deck is done, but it's just not safe to invest either.
February 7, 2015 4:06 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #28
If there's one thing Wizards absolutely hates, it's banning cards. They haven't changed their entire mindset on banning things, but they did what they thought was necessary, and that was removing power cards.
I agree with TolarianCommunityCollege that modern should have MORE power, because even though Abzan is really strong, Jund is more aggressive. Unbanning a whole lot of stuff like (DRS, Sword of the Meek, Birthing Pod, Dig Through Time, maybe Punishing Fire, Bloodbraid Elf) would increase the strength of many decks, create some new ones, and since the top decks are all bashing heads together, the T2 strategies will have an easier time getting surprise wins. It could be a more diverse format with more power in it.
February 7, 2015 4:54 p.m.
WovenNebula says... #29
Thank you for the video! On a side note I have been reading other forums about the pro tour this weekend and people are calling bans on Bloom Titan and Twin decks, so if they cry enough maybe we will see 90% BG meta and 2000 dollar+ playsets for Tarmo (sarcasm). Sadly I have not seen any complaints of the 30% share BG hold this tour. We just need a sweet median, I do like the swings the meta has experienced since TC and after the ban, tier 2-3 decks surfacing, but I hope it equals out soon or a new deck arises.
February 7, 2015 5:36 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #30
Deathrite Shaman and Punishing Fire should probably stay on the banned list for a little white. Sword of the Meek might be a little too strong too, not entirely sure.
Dig Through Time and Bloodbraid Elf are both viable things to be unbanned though. Both are strong but not oppressive. Birthing Pod is a tossup though, the problem is that it isn't too strong now but certainly could become too strong in the future. Unbanning it just to ban it again seems a little weird.
Also it might be time to start doing brews of old tier 2 decks and trying to make them more viable. I just started trying out building some janky combo decks since they can be really powerful and are faster than most powerful midrange/control decks. Best thing is that they will never be banned, so you can tinker to your heart's content.
Now to make Shadowborn Apostle decks a thing...
February 7, 2015 5:36 p.m.
Although we saw exactly that with how well infect has been performing. Within the bubble of the pro tour it's skipped from T2 to at least T1.5 . Interestingly, I don't recall any of us calling that one. GlistenerAgent, you're the local infect specialist, you see that one coming? It certainly took me by surprise.
February 7, 2015 5:59 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #32
If you play a deck well and get a little lucky, you can always do well.
I didn't see Infect as well positioned for the metagame, because Lingering Souls is nuts against the deck and Abzan is the worst matchup. It's being unexpected does help the deck, as people won't have it at the front of their minds when they sit down against Finkel or Bursavich.
I'm sad that Finkel misplayed against Sam Black to put himself out of Top 8. He would have gone up against Justin Cohen in the same 75-card matchup in the next round, and given himself a chance.
February 7, 2015 6:02 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #33
Patrick Chapin talked about this. Wizards planned to get rid of the Modern Pro Tour. People screamed about it. So WoTC brought it back and banned cards for the pro tour. Every single modern pro tour has involved bans, and I'm guessing that dig and pod would be legal right now if they had stayed away from the pro tour. The reason that the legacy ban list changes so rarely is that there is no ban list. Brainstorm would NOT be legal in legacy if there were pro tours.
I say, when they come to cut the pro tour next year, LET THEM.
(As far as the Abzan problem goes, if players are rational, Abzan won't be entirely dominant. So clearly Abzan will be entirely dominant.)
February 7, 2015 6:04 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #34
When we shift into two set blocks, I think it's safe to alternate Standard and Modern PTs. Standard can be the first set, and Modern the second when Standard starts to get stale. With the loss of the core set, I think that's the best plan going forward.
February 7, 2015 6:07 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #35
I love people's reactions to this shit. FEED ME YOUR TEARS.
Birthing Pod needed to go. It took me a week to come to grips with that fact. If they didn't ban Pod, you'd literally be watching an almost all Birthing Pod Top 8 tomorrow. If they didn't ban Treasure Cruise as well, it'd be a 50/50 split, Pod and Delver/Burn variants.
You guys are insane with your suggestions. Unban Punishing Fire and DRS? Are you freaking serious? You want Legacy Punishing Jund and Punishing Maverick in a Modern environment? Are you crazy? Unban Sword of the Meek? What? Have you played against Thopter Foundry in Legacy?
I am also of the opinion that WotC tried to kind of avoid this situation by making it so there were no more Modern Pro Tours. It's sort of like League of Legends when they nerf certain champions because of their dominance in pro play. You may not be as good as the pro players with that specific champ, but they're currently running the game with it or it's on a 90% ban, time to roll out the nerfs. So, as long as Modern remains a Pro Tour event, it will be subject to more stringent bannings. As such, technically, we did this.
February 7, 2015 8:18 p.m.
Misanthropia says... #36
Honestly, I really don't feel that Abzan will represent 30% of your average local meta, mostly because "Abzan" now apparently includes EVERYTHING in Junk colours, and not only the traditional Midrange GBx (TS, Goyf, Lily and companions), and also because the above mentioned deck (which is the strong Abzan deck) is FUCKING EXPENSIVE AS SHIT.
February 7, 2015 8:41 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #37
Average Local Meta as in FNM?
At any higher, more competitive meta budget is quite irrelevant and people can often fimd cards to fit in a deck quite easily.
February 7, 2015 8:47 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #38
FNM is usually a pretty bad barometer. I mean, I have a guy playing ninja bear delver and another playing human tribal and yet another playing Hakkon Loam out of usually 20 ish people for Modern (making Ninja Bear Delver, Human Tribal and Hakkon Loam each around 5% of my local Modern meta. See the problem with small sample sizes?). A better idea of a local meta would probably be a Modern PPTQ or PTQ where you'll probably see the Abzan decks, Burn, Affinity, etc. out en force.
February 7, 2015 10:29 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #39
Exactly where I was gonna go if that was what he was implying.
FNM I have played UWR Control, UR Twin and B/W Exalted, Control I tend to lose to time which I have done 2-3 times in a row usually finishing X-1, Twin I have won twice with because Time isnt an issue and my meta isn't particularly competitive. BW Exalted I came 2nd.
Most of my "llocal" meta is standard decks, there are a few competitive decks like 1 Pod, 1 Fish, 1 Storm and a few Delvers.
In a whole a local metagame isn't a practical way to analyse a competitive metagame as most people are oblivious to GP finishes and rapid Metagame developments, They play what they have.
February 7, 2015 10:42 p.m.
There are only 2 abzan decks though. Although to be fair, one is just selesnya with like thoughtseize, and the other is proper, proper Abzan. In fact the Selesnya splash black one looks like a 'shit they banned pod, what do I do now?' deck.
February 8, 2015 4:54 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #41
It seems tailored for the mirror.
Well not the mirror, But ya get me.
February 8, 2015 4:57 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #42
3 Abzan decks. One is GWb Aggro, the other two are more proper.
February 8, 2015 10:07 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #43
My local meta consists of about 50-60% burn/rdw.
February 8, 2015 10:10 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #44
Jesse Hampton is currently using Tasigur to wear away at a Hornet Queen from Amulet Bloom. He's getting back Abrupt Decay every time, and he might win. Tasigur's nuts.
February 8, 2015 2:56 p.m.
So no abzan in the finals. Does this mean we won't be seeing it at 30% of the meta, in the next major tournament. Also note amulet bloom won a scg event a week or two ago, and almost had two decks in the top 8 at the pro tour, on top of it being in the finals.
February 8, 2015 3:10 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #47
Bloom isn't all that degenerate. It makes me happy.
It's also not a boring Grindy deck so there's that
February 8, 2015 3:12 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #48
The deck is very good when it draws well, terrible when it doesn't. Justin Cohen is a very strong pilot of the deck, and added Ancient Stirrings to combat a potential lack of consistency.
February 8, 2015 3:15 p.m.
Still 3 in the top 8. Not as worrying as it could be.
February 8, 2015 3:18 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #50
I agree completely when he added it. It's such a brilliant addition since it gets amulets too.
Snake_Oil says... #1
Red is somewhat limited in useful creature effects. Most of it's either firebreath or occasionally trample or doublestrike.
A good Red creature-based Aggro deck would be good, not one reliant upon creatures like Eidolon of the Great Revel to punish.
But for me, it's White or a two colour with white and X colour.
February 7, 2015 10:48 a.m.