Some Thoughts Upon the Past Months
Modern forum
Posted on March 23, 2015, 10:01 p.m. by CanadianShinobi
The logic that the Modern meta is fine because nothing is dominating is erroneous. Everything being nice and status, is precisely the problem. By banning Dig and Cruise, Wizards brought the meta game backwards. Hell, I could accept Cruise getting banned, because at least I can see viable traces of logic there, but the banning of Dig was asinine, because it was based on faulty reasoning that had and now will never have any contradicting or supporting evidence.
Arguably the meta is not fine. I would argue that if a meta is stale and stagnant that it is not thriving. The current meta lacks energy and diversity. Yes, diversity. We have midrange, combo and... aggro. And we have only one viable combo deck, several midrange decks and a the usually aggro decks. We're missing something though... hmmmm could it be Control, or hell even Tempo? By golly gee I think it is!
The existence of Wizards in a vacuum is absurd. Someone can tell me that Abzan isn't nearly as bad as Pod or Delver for the percentage of the meta game, but at least the meta game back then, about 4-5 months ago? Was energetic. I'd rather play against Pod than Abzan Midrange, because Pod actually requires my opponent to know what they are doing. Abzan is just a bunch of goodstuff crammed into 75 slots.
When entire archetypes are removed due to poor foresight and poor logical decision making then is it not reasonable to ask for change? I am more than well aware that as a TCG Company, Wizards is in no way inclined to even consider my arguments. I am aware that Trading Card Games are asymmetrical in terms of accessibility. I am aware of these things and more, but that does not mean I, and perhaps others, cannot be angry and frustrated with these things.
What I expect is to discuss whether or not the format is healthy. Truly, undeniably healthy. You have my reasons here for why it is not. I see it as stagnant and a step backwards. We have seen this meta before. The last bans were problematic. That there has been no change to day furthers this problem.
I dunno guys. A lot of this is rehashed discussion we've had a million times. So the format could be more diverse, I won't disagree. But am I the only person who thinks the format will take more time to show its current potential? People are still testing stuff. Too many people rely on current numbers and are scared of trying things. I've been playing exclusively U-Tron, and doing much better than people would have me think. Granted that's anecdotal at best and certainly not viable data.
But my point is, look at esper mentor, various tron tweaks, people are trying stuff. It's not there yet, but give it some time. Tier 1 brewing shouldn't be expected to happen overnight.
Tl:dr I don't think we've seen the full potential of this meta yet: think like an esper control player: be patient.
March 24, 2015 12:21 p.m.
No I agree with that also. Might be stagnant now but you can't say what's around the corner.
March 24, 2015 12:39 p.m.
Wow, I said something about modern and wasn't schooled by ChiefBell I feel like I've grown XD
March 24, 2015 12:42 p.m.
OtakulordAndrew says... #5
Yep you never know what's around the corner in a format like modern, with the wide variety of cards it's just a matter of time until someone stumbles across ideas to work with, that's the fun of a game which is always evolving and having new content added, even if most of it is not used in the format maybe a day will come when wizards creates a block specifically targeted at adding cards to the game that would be viable in modern in either a new deck arc-type or as an alternative card choice in an existing arc-type, or they will create a card which works well with a card that was previously not viable in the formats meta to allow more cards to see play, the possibilities are truly limitless.
March 24, 2015 2:01 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #6
Speaking of being right around the corner, could I please get some feedback on my fish deck? Almost everyone has been trying to steer it back to a mono U fish deck, but this is really a Blue Moon with fish core. I'm not the best at modern, so if someone could guide me in a better direction I'd absolutely appreciate that. Modern Fish for a Modern World please feedback. I honestly feel like there is something about this list that has a lot of potential, so if all you modern experts could at least give it a quick look I'd really appreciate that. I know that this is the wrong place for a plug, but since you are all subscribed to this thread I figure it is worth the risk.
March 24, 2015 4:22 p.m.
jandrobard says... #7
Printing good cards that DON'T support an already established archetype would be a step in the right direction.
March 24, 2015 5:14 p.m.
MSU_Iced_Z says... #8
jandrobard And that's exactly why Pod had to go. Under that mindset, which is a reasonable way to think about things, you couldn't print good creatures in Green, Black, or White without boosting an existing archetype. That's the definition of oppressive.
March 24, 2015 5:29 p.m.
selesvyaloverer8 says... #9
2 things,
1) to boost control we should unban JtMS.
LMAO. but seriously watch this
2)to be serious now what do u guys think about unbanning Ancestral Vision. It would boost control with some card draw but wouldnt boost delver or storm b/c its too slow.
March 24, 2015 8:52 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #10
selesvyaloverer8 if you're going to do that you may as well just unban Treasure Cruise instead. And we all know how everyone feels about that now don't we?
March 24, 2015 8:54 p.m.
selesvyaloverer8 says... #11
i feel like Ancestral Vision is a lot different. its not playable in delver because unless it is in ur opening hand its dead b/c delver wants to kill fast. Control wants ancestral vision because at any given point in the game, it is most likely that you dont want the game to be done four turns from now.
March 24, 2015 9:50 p.m.
FreddyFlash311 says... #12
What blue control decks don't have enough card draw? Sphinx's Revelation, Jace, Architect of Thought, Blue Sun's Zenith, Compulsive Research, Thoughtcast, Thirst for Knowledge, Gifts Ungiven (kinda), Think Twice, Jace's Ingenuity, Opportunity. That's just off the top of my head. All but three of those are instants.
March 24, 2015 10:07 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #13
FreddyFlash311 Control decks do no possess efficient card draw. Dig, Cruise and Visions are all efficient because they require so little mana investment. Something tells me you're not a control player.
March 24, 2015 10:11 p.m.
Most of those options are flat out unplayable. Sphinx's Revelation is viable as a one- or two-of, Jace, Architect of Thought is very rarely seen, Think Twice sees some play (I'm not sure how much an exaggeration that word is), and Gifts Ungiven is its own deck entirely. The rest of the cards are just bad.
March 24, 2015 10:34 p.m.
selesvyaloverer8 says... #15
what control really wants is some split of 6 copies of dig through time and sphinx's rev. it doesnt have that or any other efficient card draw.
March 24, 2015 10:45 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #16
The problem with Ancestral Vision is cascade.
March 24, 2015 11:23 p.m.
A split of six Dig Through Time and Sphinx's Revelation is horrible. Rev is played in place of DTT since the ban, not alongside it. For the most part, it's just worse.
March 24, 2015 11:29 p.m.
FreddyFlash311 says... #18
Thanks, that's pretty amusing.
A honest half (probably more) of the "control" type cards in Blue that are played in Modern gain card advantage. So you want to add easy and efficient card draw, to draw you into more cards that have at least a 35% chance to replace themselves? And you believe that this will be more balanced than how Modern is now?
Blue's fine in Modern. It's still the go-to color for card draw, it's still the go-to color for countering things. Sprinkle in some fish and that's what Blue's supposed to do, right? Add in the draw spells you want, the efficient ones, and it's going to push out the other cards and colors.
CanadianShinobi I hate "draw go" control. I love "kill everything that moves" control and hatebears-style control, the former of which loves some good card draw. Something tells me that you won't be satisfied until Blue is as dominant in Modern as it is in Legacy. That's not "balanced"
March 24, 2015 11:29 p.m.
Saying blue is the go-to color for draw and countering is like saying green is the go-to color for big creatures. The difference there is that you can't win by just drawing and countering cards.
Besides, playing cards that just draw is generally bad in a deck. It doesn't matter if you have a lot of cards if you lose with a full hand. Stuffing your deck full of draw spells only gives you theoretical advantage and you if can't use it to actually get to a win condition then it's worthless.
Blue isn't as good as other colors in Modern because it's much slower than everything else and can't control things forever. It needs to go late to win, and most decks win early. That's not to say it's not viable; it's saying that blue needs something more (what that is is beyond me).
And "sprinkling fish," as you put it, is not the solution to blue's problems. If you're referring to Merfolk, the deck is almost nowhere to be seen. Besides, it hardly runs draw or counters. It's an aggro deck.
March 24, 2015 11:40 p.m.
selesvyaloverer8 says... #20
ancestral vision isnt a problem in modern b/c there arent any good cascade spells that work with it. lets take a look
Ardent Plea - sorcery speed 3 mana draw 3 unless u hit a bolt, path etc.
Demonic Dread - sorcery speed 3 mana draw 3 except the decks that would want that are playing low cost stuff like goyf and lili. plus even this wouldnt put grixis midrange over the top.
Violent Outburst- instant 3 mana draw 3 fine but same issue as demonic dread but with RUG midrange
anything else is 4-mana sorcery speed draw 3 so u might as well just play Harmonize (meh) but less consistent and after that its 5+ mana so u might as well play Jace's Ingenuity
March 25, 2015 12:08 a.m.
FreddyFlash311 says... #21
Cryptic tap draw a card, next turn Snap Cryptic tap bounce snap. How many other fair plays in Modern are that impactful, without giving you a disadvantage? And all in a single color? And that happen on a regular basis in games with decks that run those cards? I mean, seriously, how many times does your opponent have you dead on board and you flat delay through two turns that you should have been dead for?
"Sprinkling Fish" was a reference to Merfolk, yes. And it's tribal aggro, yes. But it's still a part of Blue, and it's still "the" mono colored tribal deck in Modern (and Vintage...).
Every color needs something more in Modern. Except red. Don't get me started on Red.
Dude I like completely call BS about your "Blue isn't as good as other colors in Modern" statement. It can't generally race RDW, sure. No one can, that's why it's RDW. It's all about damage control when any other deck is against them, not just blue decks. Otherwise? Remand and Spell Snare them until you can Cryptic them until you do something else to finish the game. You can't do a mono-blue control (UW Tron...), sure, but it sure does work well when paired with other colors. Is it Lilianna that's the problem? Run black and kill her, assuming she gets through your counterspells. Ok, Bloom Titan could be rough when they get the perfect hand. But what color isn't it rough for?
Seriously, Blue's fine. It's not underpowered, it's not overpowered, it's just fine.
March 25, 2015 12:38 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #22
FreddyFlash311 No. I would just like to see a format where every style of play is reasonably viable. So, aggro, midrange, combo and tempo/control. Really, the fact that control is nonexistent is actually troublesome, because it represents an unbalanced metagame. I know my ideal exists in the fabled "magical christmas land", however, you've made a false assumption about what I want and I must clarify that.
I don't want Blue to dominate, that doesn't solve anything. In fact that makes things far worse than they are now. Look at it this way: What this entire thread boils down to is my increasing resentment with how Wizards is treating Modern. They exist in a vacuum. They do not test properly and as a result they have made poor decisions lately. There has been a lot of division between players lately, does that strike you as a game being in good shape? It doesn't to me. It tells me something is wrong.
Now, there have been assumptions made by others that I made these assertions based on person feelings. To some extent this is true. However, I have also done my research. Nearly 30% of the metagame is Abzan and Burn and yet no one is calling for the banning of those decks. And that is precisely the rough number that Delver and Pod consisted of a few months ago. And yet there is no outrage as there was mere month ago. The "Abzan and Burn are fair" arguments hold no water. That is a purely subjective and unsupportable argument. Because by the logic of that argument Delver is still an unfair deck because it's main function has not ceased.
If you can provide me with a reason, a legitimate, developed reason, as to why one pair of dominant decks is "healthy" and another pair is considered "unhealthy" then I am more than willing to engage in this discussion further. I hope this has clarified my position on the matter at hand. In retrospect my original arguments were poorly constructed and written in a state of anger and bitterness.
March 25, 2015 12:39 a.m.
I'm not much of a modern player but I do notice that at my local shop the same decks have been showing up for a long time. Typically there's a Bloom Titan, a RDW, a Splintertwin, a U/G/X control deck (Using green for Tarmogoyf and blue for Delver) and the rest just don't seem to matter as they rarely place in the top 4 whether there are as few as 8 or as many as 20 modern players.
Strangely enough now that Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise are banned, and now that Golgari Grave-Troll is unbanned i've been seeing a lot more modern players show up! I suppose a lot of people must play modern just because it doesn't change as often. I mean the people who play it at my shop seem pretty smart about games and logic so maybe to them it's more about the strategy than the constantly getting new cards to crush with?
Hopefully Collected Company makes a viable combo deck for Abzan colors but isn't immediately banned because of it.
I think with Modern the reason it changes less should be obvious though. Every single new card printed would have to compare to the best cards in the typical top 8 decks played in modern in terms of value (So, CMC and Power) and Wizards just doesn't want to print cards as strong as Path to Exile or Spell Pierce anymore. (Siege Rhino is great but it's no Path or Abrupt Decay in terms of investment vs reward simply because control laughs at it.)
To summarize I wouldn't say the format is unhealthy, but it's a little like visiting a grandparents house. Stale, you know just what to expect.
March 25, 2015 1:28 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #24
Honestly, I don't think any decks (save burn) are easy to play in modern. However, playing Abzan is much more linear than playing something like Jund back in the day, or Reid Duke's current list. Playing Twin can be harder than Abzan, and 'truer' combo decks (Amulet, Storm, Pod), require a very particular play style, and way of thinking to actually accomplish anything.
The answer, as GlistenerAgent said on page 3, is to make better decks. Abzan is legit, so we need to fight Abzan in legit ways. If everyone plays stock lists that they saw in a Top8, the meta will stay stagnant. Innovation is required in times like this.
March 25, 2015 1:54 a.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #25
The simple case for 
being underpowered in Modern is that there is no mono blue viable deck in Modern while there is almost always a mono 
.
March 25, 2015 8:56 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #26
There never will be a mono-blue deck. Red decks can win games. Blue decks cannot.
March 25, 2015 9:02 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #27
@GlistenerAgent There are and will continue to be mono-blue decks in Modern that win. However, I doubt that there will be a mono-blue control list that will be tier 1 anytime soon.
Just to name a couple mono- decks, Merfolk and Extra Turns both show up at every large modern event.
March 25, 2015 9:06 a.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #29
The point is should have a supported strategy to win on its own. That is supposedly Control which is absent from the meta. Hell, I would be happy if they just supported mill.
March 25, 2015 9:26 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #30
Forgot those. However, I was only discussing the fact that "blue is underpowered because you can't make a mono-blue deck" is rather silly.
March 25, 2015 9:28 a.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #31
I don't think its silly at all, and I don't even consider myself a blue player. If every other color is able to function on its own, why should blue be the only one not able to?
March 25, 2015 10:27 a.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #32
mono W = Soul Sisters
mono U = merfolk
mono B = Infect, 8rack
mono R = Burn/sligh/RDW, Skred
mono G = Nyxwave, stompy, Infect
Those are the mono decks I can think of. As you can see, only blue has a viable "fair" deck.
March 25, 2015 10:36 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #33
Infect is a /
deck normally, with the occasional mono- builds.
Also Burn is much more viable than Merfolk. It's been a tier 1-1.5 deck for a while now, especially with the new addition of Monastery Swiftspear.
March 25, 2015 10:43 a.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #34
But ironically Merfolk is hindered in Modern by the amount of removal that most decks maindeck, and that phenomenon is predicated by the lack of a strong Control deck in the format.
March 25, 2015 10:44 a.m.
OtakulordAndrew says... #35
All the colors have some form of mono colored modern deck they are primarily lower tier 2-3 decks though. Mono red deck wins just tends to draw more attention to itself do to being able to still place high at major events. Other mono colored decks such as blue merfolk tier 2-3 depending on the build can still place and mono decks that splash a second color such as blue moon are still viable modern decks they just don't get the hype of certain tier 1 decks such as abzan midrange, and splinter twin, which is part of the reason why there are so many of said tier 1 decks floating around. Pod used to be a good deck that some people played, others did not then modern masters and the boom in modern players happened pod got over hyped and then there was a surge in pod players. The same can be seen in card prices when certain decks get hyped you will see a spike but over time when it dies down the prices settle it's the same for deck arc types once the hype dies down we will see things spread out and become more diverse (hopefully) just give it time
March 25, 2015 10:48 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #36
Mono coloured decks are irrelevant. What is concerning is that the meta possesses nothing remotely close to a tempo or control build. I'm more concerned with the types of decks being played than what colours are in those decks.
March 25, 2015 10:52 a.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #37
CanadianShinobi The point was used to illustrate the lack of a Control and Tempo build in Modern is due to the fact that Wizards does not support blue the way it supports other colors. When they have tried, they have repeatedly used the banhammer to undo it. In some cases, even before they have allowed the meta time to adjust. If Wizards doesn't print viable control and tempo cards in that are Modern relevant and allow a few experiments to run their course, we're never going to get there.
March 25, 2015 11:08 a.m.
We do have Remand, Mana Leak, Cryptic Command and various others that are undoubtedly strong. Played alongside white you get removal from Path to Exile. Control isn't bad. I think this is part of the problem - blue isn't actually bad (it's pretty great), and with other colours it has a lot of tools. But still it's missing.....something. In my opinion it needs a little more draw power - something to keep up with the midrange decks that can aggressively force you to use your counterspells. How broken would a 3 mana card that drew you 2 cards be?
March 25, 2015 11:15 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #39
ChiefBell it would have to be at instant speed, since the 3 mana card for 2 already exists in Divination. Honestly, it doesn't sound that bad, christ they have a mini Combust now, so perhaps we'll see it in the future?
March 25, 2015 11:21 a.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #40
I agree with you ChiefBell. I think efficient card draw is certainly the missing link.
I actually think that the lack of a reprint of Counterspell makes for a more diverse Control suite that I personally find more enjoyable, even if as a 90's player, I do miss it.
March 25, 2015 11:23 a.m.
Yeh see, I think the lack of Counterspell in modern is, to some extent, a good thing. It means that like every other deck Control has cards that become useless in the lategame. In the same way that your turn 8 Wild Nacatl is going to do virtually nothing, your turn 8 Mana Leak isn't going to be great either. On the other hand Counterspell is kind of like goyf. It's always good. Play it early, play it late, play it any time. It won't lose efficacy. Also having both Mana Leak AND Counterspell would be really powerful.
March 25, 2015 11:27 a.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #42
I agree. Though I think something like a 
costed Counterspell might be interesting.
March 25, 2015 11:30 a.m.
OtakulordAndrew says... #43
Although we don't have a truly great draw spell I find that with the proper graveyard tutoring using cards like Snapcaster Mage, Eternal Witness, and Tasigur, the Golden Fang a control format becomes more viable as you add a threat to the board while getting back your control. While I will admit that control might be missing something it has so many great cards to work with amongst the five colors that it's definitely still playable in the modern format, you just have to be careful about how you use your resources and eventually have some way of killing your opponent. As things stand plenty of modern decks have some form of control present in them showing that it has a place, although true control decks are not as popular in the current meta someone will eventually crack the formula and make a brilliant control deck then we will have the opposite problem of people complaining about to many control decks and not enough midrange decks. We just have to give it time or if your truly impatient start looking back through wizard's data base for that card which was overlooked and will help turn it around. Also three mana draw two cards spell exists Divination sadly it is sorcery speed if it was instant then we'd be going somewhere.
March 25, 2015 11:30 a.m.
Interesting fact. Counterspell isn't really viable in any format except perhaps EDH (and even then... I don't see it that often). It's not modern legal, and legacy/vintage have Force of Will. It's amusing how irrelevant a card so often cited as OP has become...
March 25, 2015 12:22 p.m.
I never understood FOW as anythign except a T0 counterspell. It is just pure card disadvantage most of the time.
March 25, 2015 12:24 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #46
From the perspective of a Delver player mind you, Force is exceptionally good in Legacy because a lot of the decks run so land light that being able to counter a spell without paying mana is worth losing a card.
Truth be told, I do side them out a lot (depends on the matchup, of course), but with the possibility of running into a turn one combo deck being as high as it is in Legacy, having Force is necessary if you've decided to have as high a probability as possible of not losing to said decks.
March 25, 2015 12:30 p.m.
Mind you, I'm no legacy player, so that's just coming from second hand experience of the format. But anyhow. It was random off-topic musings.
March 25, 2015 12:51 p.m.
jandrobard says... #48
So I was talking to someone about this, and he said a good solution was to print Daze in a modern legal set. Thoughts?
March 25, 2015 1:18 p.m.
Modern is fine for counters, and I'm a blue player. It's the card draw that's the issue. The only efficient way to avoid being ran dry is running half your deck in cantrips and well... That only really works for U-Tron. Or kiln-fiend assault strobe (yeah, not a thing anymore) or perhaps storm (still barely a thing) oh, and blistercoil mantle (haha, yeah... Never was much of a thing). I tried brewing a few tempo builds for modern and constantly failed. The recurring problem being that sooner or later I need to draw, and Divination or god forbid Opportunity just aren't cutting it.
March 25, 2015 1:45 p.m.
Wait... Am I saying that what I want is DTT???Oops...
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #1
I think that rather than unbanning WotC needs to take a printing approach. You cannot create a healthy meta by destroying archetypes (although pod needed to go) but rather a better tactic would be to print cards that feed archetypes. Buff UW control not by nerfing everyone else, but by printing narset, supreme verdict, and myth realized.
The tricky thing is to buff an archetype without buffing combo decks , which currently make up a 33-47%, depending on how you want to count RDW. The best way to do that is planeswalkers. Karn put tron back, has taken bob's spot in junk, and narset will put uw control back.
I'm a firm believer that ashiok will hit 40+ bucks a piece, because he/she/ze makes UB control a thing.
Printing planeswalkers can help specific decks without incurring the collateral boost to combo that was caused by DTT and TC
March 24, 2015 12:05 p.m.