Spell Pierce vs Negate
Modern forum
Posted on Dec. 13, 2014, 11:09 p.m. by BlackyMTG
Recently me and vault(formerly known as Fulcrum) have been arguing about which card is just plain better to play overall across any deck. Spell Pierce vs Negate Give me your thoughts.
JexInfinite says... #3
Spell Pierce is better in tempo, Negate is better in straight control, but Dispel is the best.
December 13, 2014 11:20 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #4
It depends on the deck. Just in general, I would say that Spell Pierce is better. Normally people try to stick to their curve, and countering that Birthing Pod or Jeskai Ascendancy is normally a good choice.
Also I tend to assume that the blue player with two mana open is going to do something, and I would never play my spells if I had a choice. I would be much more likely to walk into a Spell Pierce instead of a Negate.
December 13, 2014 11:24 p.m.
It depends on the deck. For aggro, like U/R Delver or even Merfolk, and combo, Spell Pierce is better because it allows them to utilize more mana and still have a counter ready. Control decks are usually reactive anyway so having a lot of open mana is a necessity and they're not trying to let anything slide, so Negate is generally the better option. Overall, I think Negate is better because of the fact that it forces another counter rather than a cost, but most counters are two mana anyway. You just can't rely on Spell Pierce all the time.
December 13, 2014 11:29 p.m.
Just to muddy the waters more a card I've been liking for this sort of debate is Stubborn Denial with the right builds like fish for example the card is pretty filthy
But of the two given definitely spell pierce.
December 13, 2014 11:29 p.m.
miracleHat says... #7
Spell Pierce costs less and you are usually countering cards like Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin and so on. When those types of cards are being cast, mana isn't usually left open.
Negate costs more mana, and if keeping two mana open, Mana Leak counters any spell and Remand is tempo.
December 14, 2014 12:43 a.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #8
The answer is Counterspell. So much Counterspell.
But seriously, though I don't know how much it matters, but: Scapeshift decks will just pay the mana for Spell Pierce when they are forced to to have an answer to Negate. Just sayin'.
I second the motion for Dispel in that slot, actually. If I had to choose, I guess I'd say Spell Pierce due to it's efficiency with regards to mana cost. But it's a hard question. =/
December 14, 2014 12:55 a.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #9
Also...
@vault Why the name change? I liked Fulcrum... =(
December 14, 2014 12:56 a.m.
@TheAnnihilator: I changed to vault because it was my old Internet username everywhere. It was taken here when I first started though, and yeaGO did me a favor by deleting the old inactive user. However, I'm kinda considering going back, just because I liked the way Fulcrum sounded. But it might be confusing to change names already, as well as disrespectful to yeaGO considering he did me that favor.
December 14, 2014 1:47 a.m.
@TheAnnihilator: Also, vault is a pun with my new title as well - Locked & Loaded.
December 14, 2014 1:48 a.m.
@ vault I was v4v3 before I snagged the name Dave, so I know what you mean.
Keep dat name though. If it's your usual e-identity it's totally worth it.
December 14, 2014 4:03 a.m.
Oh shit. I guess I should contribute to the topic since I'm decent w/ modern.
I agree with miracleHat. There is no reason to run Negate over Mana Leak imo.
December 14, 2014 4:06 a.m.
There is exactly one reason to run Negate over Mana Leak: the really long control mirror. Though it's probably better to run it alongside Mana Leak, maybe side out the Remands.
Well, there is nothing more fun than Remanding a Treasure Cruise, so that might not be it either. Mana Leak is really only good in the early game, but late game control mirrors need that hard counter.
December 14, 2014 4:13 a.m.
PaladinRyan says... #15
Negate is really only good in the control mirror as mentioned. Spell Pierce will usually be a Negate when it is used in most matchups. And for two mana Mana Leak is usually just going to be better for control and Remand better for tempo. However I can see Negate in the side of control for the mirror or even the main depending on your meta at the moment.
December 14, 2014 7:49 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #16
Spell Pierce should only be in your Delver/other aggro decks. If you are more controlling, play Negate and Dispel.
December 14, 2014 9:05 a.m.
PaladinRyan says... #18
Spell Snare is another excellent card though as with many cards here it is hard to say what is really better. Each counter will perform better in certain decks and in certain matchups than in others.
December 14, 2014 9:59 a.m.
Yeah you are right, they each server their own purpose in the right situations.
But I love spell snare because there's a ton of 2 cmc spells that this guy hits just for 1 mana, that's what I love about it.
But I do like the blanket that Negate covers so I'd have to say Negate over Spell Pierce
December 14, 2014 10:35 a.m.
I like how varying the responses are here. I feel I should point out that Negate and Spell Pierce are probably the two worst playable counters in the Modern format. Mana Leak, Remand, and Spell Snare are leagues above them, and I think even Swan Song is a bit more playable than the two at hand here.
December 14, 2014 12:48 p.m.
That's true, but Delver prefers Spell Pierce over something like Swan Song because it doesn't leave a 2/2. It covers more options than Spell Snare in terms of what Delver doesn't like, and the other counters are 2 mana, which is hindering enough. There aren't too many other popular decks that run Spell Pierce, and the ones that do are combos and fairly inconsistent.
December 14, 2014 1:11 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #22
If you're playing control, i feel like Negate and Dispel cover everything. I wouldn't play Spell Pierce. If you're playing Delver, however, I like Spell Pierce and either Dispel or Spell Snare.
December 14, 2014 1:20 p.m.
I wasn't saying that Delver should be playing Swan Song, just mentioned it as being a better card than either Spell Pierce or Negate in the Modern format as a whole. Spell Pierce is actually really good in Delver, just nowhere else.
December 14, 2014 1:20 p.m.
PaladinRyan says... #24
The answer to the original question sadly comes down to "It depends." Spell Pierce is better for Delver (probably for most tempo based strategies, delver is just most relevant), Negate for control, especially in the mirror. Once you bring in sideboard, other counters, meta, etc etc it gets even more complicated but what is best really just depends.
December 14, 2014 2:28 p.m.
Swan Song is a far worse card than Spell Pierce. A 2/2 flyer is very relevant since if you bolt it you're just 2-for-1'ing yourself. Also it can't hit Birthing Pod and the two mana to get it through often matters more than you think.
December 14, 2014 9:51 p.m.
Swan Song is not meant for tempo or control, nothing like that. It's for combo decks. Specifically Scapeshift. It performed excellently. Like Dispel plus. I don't care if my opponent has a 2/2 bird if I'm going to kill them right now. And I'd rather they have a 2/2 bird than land a Blood Moon against a deck that relies on nonbasics.
December 14, 2014 10:29 p.m.
vault is right here, although I'd call Scapeshift a control deck first and a combo deck second. For that reason, I see a lot of people run Negate in the sideboard for the deck over Swan Song, but I don't think that's right.
Anyway, forgetting Scapeshift specifically, the need for a card is entirely deck-specific, and thus you can only argue over card choice for a deck.
December 14, 2014 10:37 p.m.
Well Swan Song is fine in U/R, seeing you can Jet the bird and scry 2.
December 27, 2014 8:26 a.m.
KrosanTusker says... #29
I like Spell Pierce a lot, actually, but if you can afford to hold up two mana then Negate is a better choice since the sort of games where players are holding up two mana are not the place where Spell Pierce shines.
For Delver specifically, I like Spell Pierce main and Spell Snare side, since Snare is too oddly specific for a main deck that wants no more than six counterspells, but it is useful against Tarmogoyfs which don't die to burn.
I don't like Dispel, at all, because there is just so much more that you'll want to counter than just instants. This is true in just about every matchup I can think of.
TurboFagoot says... #2
Spell Pierce without question.
December 13, 2014 11:17 p.m.