Stoneforge Mystic in Modern.
Modern forum
Posted on Sept. 19, 2015, 4:10 p.m. by tclaw12
Before Khans of Tarkir, I would've said Stoneforge Mystic is probably too strong for Modern. Now, I'm not so sure. Here are my thoughts:
Kolaghan's Command is a clean answer to Stoneforge Mystic, even if you get to activate her.
Batterskull isn't what it used to be. Though it still trumps aggressive decks, it is simply outclassed by Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler and Siege Rhino. Most aggressive decks will have artifact hate post-board anyways.
Modern obviously doesn't have access to Umezawa's Jitte, so that might help keep Stoneforge Mystic in check.
Combo decks like Twin and Infect probably don't even care about Stoneforge Mystic/Batterskull.
What do you think? Will Stoneforge Mystic ever be unbanned in Modern?
VampireArmy says... #3
Like Birthing Pod, just because it's not broken now doesn't mean it won't be in the future. Having cards like those in the format restricts design space by making them consider it every time they want to design a good equipment
September 19, 2015 4:15 p.m.
actuall just thought of a scenario, of splashing white in infect for mystics for a guaranteed Cranial Plating
September 19, 2015 4:16 p.m.
There was actually some pretty serious speculation about unbanning SFM when the last ban announcement was made. I talked to numerous people who were predicting an unbanning for SFM and a ban for Batterskull. Now, it doesn't really seem like Batterskull needs to be banned, as Kolaghan's Command nuters it pretty bad. It would require a ton of testing to make sure it wouldn't break the format, and as Vamp said, it would restrict design space for future sets. Personally, I don't see it happening, but I also don't think it would hurt the format if it did.
September 19, 2015 4:22 p.m.
MSU_Iced_Z says... #6
I agree as well. The Birthing Pod ban sent a signal about WotC's policy on overly broad tutors in modern.
September 19, 2015 4:37 p.m.
I feel like Birthing Pod and Stoneforge Mystic are completely different though. Creatures vs. Equipment doesn't seem like a fair comparison.
September 19, 2015 5:05 p.m.
MSU_Iced_Z says... #9
Not really, because you're only comparing the best of the best. At the top-tier, Modern-competitive level, every card type can be dangerous with the right combination of power level and access.
Plus, Modern has three banned equipment already. The card type isn't inherently safe.
September 19, 2015 5:52 p.m.
*4 (Batterskull, Sword of the Meek, Skullclamp, and Umezawa's Jitte).
September 19, 2015 6:06 p.m.
Here's the thing. Does Modern want T3 Batterskulls? The answer is no. Stoneforge Mystic would let some new decks get played, along the lines of Stoneblade or Deathblade, but I feel the overall power of the card makes it too good for Modern.
September 19, 2015 7:13 p.m.
Well, first of all, Deathblade won't be a thing in Modern because Deathrite Shaman is banned. Secondly, I'm not really sure why a t3 Batterskull breaks the format when Junk can play Birds of Paradise and drop a t3 Siege Rhino. Finally, the main reason Stoneblade is a thing is that in Legacy SFM can fetch Umezawa's Jitte. More often than not, Batterskull is only a secondary target. Jitte definitely isn't coming off the banned list. So, as I said before, I really don't think SFM would break the format. It would open a few new lines of play, but it wouldn't be over powered in my opinion. However, I don't think it will happen because of the restrictions it would put on future design space as far as new equipment is concerned.
September 19, 2015 7:23 p.m.
I don't think so - doesn't Wizards not test for modern?
September 19, 2015 7:27 p.m.
Wic_Uber - No, Wizards does not test for Modern. They spend their efforts on testing for Standard and Limited. Which is part of the reason why they banned Birthing Pod since they don't want to stop making good creatures which makes Pod better.
And kmcree is correct though. Stoneforge Mystic would suffer from a similar issue as Birthing Pod, which is probably the best reason given for why it won't be unbanned.
September 19, 2015 7:39 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #17
The only reason that SFM would not come off of the ban list is because it limits the design space for equipments like JWiley129 mentioned.
As someone with a artifact voltron commander deck I don't want WotC to feel limited in the equipment they can print... lol
September 19, 2015 8:22 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #18
Even with the presence of Bolts, Kommands and Terminates, the threat of a T3 Batterskull is real, and crazy. It's an absolutely insane card in legacy, and the equipment isn't even different (Jitte is good, but SoFaI is the real deal, and T3 Batterskull is crazy). I don't see why Wizards would release her from the list for the reasons specified above.
September 19, 2015 9:43 p.m.
One thing I can say for sure, if she was unbanned the price would easily double. Junk could run it, America Control would come back, esper control could run it (and put swords onto Creeping Tar Pit YUM!)
Also there hasn't been any good equipment since the Scars of Mirrodin block. What this means is even without Stoneforge Mystic WotC is making really bad equipments. I mean Sword of the Animist? (Pukes on a small dog) That thing is just disgusting. (kicks the dog away.)
I don't see Stoneforge limiting future design space when it's pretty clear that they only intent to print bad equipment anyways. The only good one in recent memory is Ghostfire Blade which doesn't exactly scream "I want Stoneforge Mystic" to me.
September 19, 2015 10:21 p.m.
kengiczar - I think you mistake bad equipment with then not designing equipment on the power level of either the Swords of X and Y or Batterskull. Scars had some really good equipment, and they haven't pushed an equipment since, probably to put some distance between Scars and the next time we get an "artifacts matter" set. Yes, Ghostfire Blade is the best equipment in recent memory, but that doesn't mean WotC won't ever make good equipment again.
September 19, 2015 10:27 p.m.
JexInfinite: why is a t3 Batterskull that much worse than a t3 Siege Rhino? I just don't think it would warp the format that much. It would just provide a good threat for colors outside of Junk.
September 19, 2015 10:38 p.m.
KillDatBUG says... #22
In order to understand why Stoneforge Mystic is banned, you need to understand why it was banned in the first place. And the reason is... it's the single best win condition in white, meaning that every single deck playing white plays the Stoneforge package. And when that happens, deck diversity gets killed off. It doesn't matter if it's possible to answer the card if it's already warped the format in a negative way, exactly in the way Birthing Pod did. Yes, Birthing Pod could be answered. But did it matter? No. The deck was still the most powerful green deck, and it was still killing deck diversity.
September 19, 2015 10:38 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #23
KillDatBUG To be fair anything Green right now is "Goyf or bust" (aside from a few corner cases like bloom titan and Infect) and they haven't done anything about him. I get your point but the wording implies that anything that gets played in any [insert color here] deck is banworthy.
September 19, 2015 10:54 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #24
Ohthenoises Goyf doesn't kill deck diversity. Snappy doesn't kill deck diversity. Both of these are legal, and the meta is incredibly diverse. The format at the moment is in no need of any change, except potential unbannings which will really do nothing. Unbanning Sword of the Meek may make Tezzerator a thing, which just adds to deck diversity.
SFM decreases deck diversity, because it forces the opponent to take it into consideration when constructing a deck.
September 19, 2015 10:57 p.m. Edited.
Ohthenoises says... #25
JexInfinite My point was the way that KillDatBUG worded it came across as "if something is so good it demands a 4 of if you are in that color it should be banned". That's all, I said nothing about deck diversity, just wording.
September 19, 2015 11:25 p.m.
The answer is that no, Stoneforge Mystic would not be over powered in modern. The reason it's so good in legacy is A) Jitte is also tutorable, B), Force of Will, Counterspell, and the Red Elemental Blasts exist to protect that equipment, as well as brainstorm to hide it from Thoughtseize effects, and C) the decks that run it specialize in locking out other decks so that the equipment can go to work.
There is no equivalent to death blade or death and taxes in modern (and no, hate bears is not the same as death and taxes, the wastelands and ports make a huge difference). As such, I don't think Stoneforge would be over powered. The problem is, is that it's such a value card, that every deck running white would just auto include 4 stoneforge mystics and one batterskull in the main board. And decks that weren't white would just splash white to do the same. The problem isn't that the card is too "good", it's that it's too "efficient" and would create a stale meta.
Sure there are cards played in modern that are "better" than batterskull. However, the format is slow enough that you could get away with tossing the Batterskull ONTO the tasigur or rhino in a deck designed to do so. And that would just get tedious.
September 19, 2015 11:32 p.m. Edited.
JexInfinite says... #27
kyuuri117 In D&T, I rarely fetch up Jitte, unless circumstance requires that of me. SoFaI is usually just the best thing you can get.
If SFM was unbanned, D&T would be a legit thing, and that's a scary thought. It's not as OP as in legacy due to the lack of the manabase, but you could replicate something very similar.
September 19, 2015 11:37 p.m.
I just don't think SFM would be any different than Goyf, Snappy, or Lili as far as prevalence. There will always be cards that are auto 4-ofs. I also really don't like the argument that "x card would be super prevalent so it should be banned." By that argument, Goyf, Lili, Snap, Bolt, and Path should all be banned. It just doesn't feel like a real argument, but an overreaction.
September 19, 2015 11:39 p.m.
Right, i'm just saying that having the option of searching up a card that A) gains life, B) kills creatures, C) increases your clock is just so convenient. You may not do it often, but when you need it you have an awesome flexible thing to find that can save your ass hardcore.
True. I definitely DON'T want her unbanned in modern. There's just no reason to. Just pointing out that I don't think she'd break the format. She would definitely increase the power level of the format.
While having baby D&T in modern would be scary, I think having American Twin where you could just tutor on turn two for a sword, Flash in a Deceiver on turn 3 tapping their defender, and then smacking em for 3 with a Sword of Fire and Ice, drawing a card and killing a bob or scooze would be stupid. The deck would be nuts. Increasing the clock, the card draw, the control, and consistency of twin would be alarming, and all it would take is 4 mystics and a sword.
September 19, 2015 11:42 p.m. Edited.
electromancer says... #30
Has anyone made an argument for why Stoneforge Mystic would be good for modern? I mean, sure there would be other decks, but here's how I picture it:
You either run Stoneforge Mystic or you run deck built around beating Stoneforge Mystic deck. Maybe it wouldn't be this bad, but I don't think this would make modern more fun.
September 20, 2015 3:14 p.m.
I can't believe this thread is still up. Let me help it not die. Here' s a short list of modern playable cards that weren't around back when SFM was printed that can help deal with it.
Ancient Grudge (Jund mostly)
Destructive Revelry (For burn)
Kolaghan's Command (Jund/Grixis)
Reclamation Sage (Elves)
Rakdos Charm (Mardu & maybe Jund/Grixis)
Wear / Tear (Jeskai & Mardu)
Abrupt Decay (Jund, Abzan, Lantern Control (Like a boss))
These all show up in decks all the time. It's just a matter of adding 1 or 2 more and then calling it good. The one card that I think would end up most affected though is Spell Snare. Also the price of Inquisition of Kozilek might go up. 
decks without 
could not really afford to play without 3-4x Spell Snare post SFM unbanning. Abzan would probably start running 4x Inquisition along with 4 of it's own SFMs. That's just my guess anyways, I don't play Abzan myself. Just seems like the logical thing to do since Inquisition hits both the swords and SFM.
Oh besides Splinter Twin obviously wanting some SFM the creature also does make Ojutai's Command insanely good. Not worth running 4 of them but I think at least 1 copy in the main is fine if you're playing with SFM. (Assuming the format is modern of course. I dont' want that slow jank in Legacy)
September 20, 2015 5:32 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #32
kengiczar The problem isn't that she can be "delt with" the problem is that she would limit the design space for WotC just like the problem with Pod.
The problem is more that WotC doesn't want to worry every time they design a card "will this creature break Pod?" Or, in this case, "would this equipment break SFM?"
September 20, 2015 6:28 p.m.
If I may add on, the Modern has all its major all-star two-drops except white.
Green - Tarmogoyf Red - Goblin Piledriver Just recently introduced. Black - Dark Confidant This guy is over-powered too. Blue - Snapcaster Mage Colorless - Arcbound Ravager
White should get it's all-star back. No one even plays equipment in Modern anyway with the exception to Affinity. Mono-white is something you won't even find in Modern because it's power level has dropped down below blue, green, and black and is only a card you'd bother to splash in. I mean even burn has its own thing dominant in red. White has become a near dead color that only takes back seat when choosing your second or third color. I think SFM can be built as the main card to build around in Modern and it would give white a much needed face-lift.
September 20, 2015 7:07 p.m.
MADMatt7777 says... #34
StopShot The best red two drop is definitely not Goblin Piledriver as of now. Currently that title belongs to either Eidolon of the Great Revel or Young Pyromancer.
September 20, 2015 8:39 p.m.
I agree that Eidolon of the Great Revel ranks above Goblin Piledriver. Not that I disagree with your main sentiment : )
September 20, 2015 11:09 p.m.
I vote for Eidolon of the Great Revel as 
's all-star 2-drop. That card is amazing.
As for the topic at hand... I'd actually like to see them give it a try. As StopShot noted, 
is by far the weakest color in Modern at the moment, and thus in need of a power boost. Furthermore, as kengiczar pointed out, there are more answers to her than when she was banned, so she'll be less format warping. I predict an unbaned Mystic would result in increased differentiation between Abzan and Jund (which is good), a resurgence of Jeskai Control (also good), and a boost to more fringe decks like Soul Sisters and Hatebears (even better). I don't really see a downside, especially given that the decks I mentioned run the gamut from aggro to midrange to control.
September 20, 2015 11:16 p.m.
MSU_Iced_Z says... #37
Let's say for the sake of argument it wouldn't be broken now. Here's why that doesn't mean WotC will unban it:
They think that eventually they'll print equipment at a (roughly) Batterskull power level that would be okay in Modern without Mystic but too warping with it. At that point you either have to ban the new equipment (and every equipment like it that comes later) or re-ban Mystic. So now you've gone ban, unban, RE-ban and no one has the faith to buy into Modern ever again. You thought people were mad when Pod left? Imagine if they brought it back for 2 years then banned it again.
So no, it's not gonna happen.
September 20, 2015 11:49 p.m.
Well, then they're going to have to come up with some good cards, because that color is on the ropes right now.
September 21, 2015 12:03 a.m.
We have no way of knowing if WotC will ever print Batterskull or Sword of X and Y caliber equipment ever again and if you look at Equipment that's come out since SFM it's gotten worse and worse.
Again the closest thing we have to "really good" is Ghostfire Blade which isn't needed in any affinity decks. I seriously doubt that WotC will ever print super powerful equipment again. I mean they are moving off of T1 mana dorks which lasted a hell of a lot longer than awesome equipment ever did. They moved off of T1 cantrips and the closest we got to that is T1 looting (on a creature which has to die). Everthing is being downgraded from creatures to removal (no more Lightning Bolt or Path to Exile) to discard (look at the most recent new discard spell. Discards 4 or greater? Really?).
The arguement that WotC won't unban it because they couldn't print powerful equipment if they did is pretty weak when you consider they aren't willing to print Sword of X and Y level equipments even without SFM. Now if you said "it's to good with Swords of X and Y and Batterskull" that would make a lot more sense.
September 21, 2015 12:13 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #40
kengiczar Just because you dont think that there will be any good equips doesn't mean there won't be.
The point is that Wizards doesn't want to have the thought of breaking SFM looming over their design crew. That isn't flimsy.
September 21, 2015 12:19 a.m.
@MSU_Iced_Z, The problem with equipment is they suck nearly as badly as auras which people never play with exception to only a few deck types. Why play an equipment when you could play a creature? Equipments by themselves usually sit around and do nothing when its by itself which is why they don't see a lot of Modern play. People would rather have two creatures out than a creature and equipment. Batterskull however is an entirely different case, because it can do something by itself and you can't have normal equipment by itself ever work as good as Batterskull does unless the bring back the Living Weapon mechanic.
Even if they did make some mind boggling equipment, the equipment itself has to be too good by itself to be used in a competitive Modern format, and only if its somehow pulling up more work than a creature could in its place then you just end up having a broken equipment that probably deserves to be banned, because it escapes typical creature removal spells which are seen in abundance in Modern. Tons of creature removal is another reason why equipment aren't used, especially when equip costs are at sorcery speeds, so if you want to over-power a creature with a "better equipment" it's going to die instantaneously as soon as you pay the equip cost. If not then you aren't playing competitive modern.
The only other thing that SFM really does have power over is cheating in larger equipment, and that's if you can even have her last for a turn due to summoning sickness. Another point to bring in is Wizards isn't likely to ever print over-powered equipment with large converted mana-costs, because they'd only be meant for Standard play first over Modern and with how they keep reprinting Naturalize and Shatter every other set, they wouldn't start making six-cost, seven-cost equipment only to have it get removed with a two-cost artifact removal. Not to mention you'd have to play that large equipment's equip cost too, giving the opposing opponent a full turn to remove it in Standard play too. And if they make the equip cost cheap for a large equipment, then it would be breaking the Standard format. Obviously when Wizards means good equipment they're going to make it cheap and therefore because of its cheapness it's effects will likely be pretty dumbed down.
You got also remember equipment's are also colorless and they are dumbed down anyway, because any color can cast them. Right now SFM is just a 1/2 creature with a Steelshaper's Gift attached to it.
And furthermore, white needs this card so bad. If you're playing weenies you can't afford space in your deck to put in multiple copies of good equipment, and in the late game your creatures are going to need some bulk to break through. This is needed in tempo and agro rather than viewing it as some control maniac that's going to poop out equipment that would somehow be scarier than Batterskull oh my!
Batterskull is it's own level that it technically can't even be considered an equipment, and any stand of the line equipment isn't going to break SFM, unless that equipment is broken in itself. If you can somehow create an equipment that's competitive Modern playable and is broken with SFM but not with Steelshaper's Gift then let me know, because right now I think SFM is pretty mediocre at this point.
That's just my thoughts anyway.
September 21, 2015 12:30 a.m.
ComradeJim270 says... #42
It's never going to happen. They're not going to unban a card that's so restrictive on their own ability to design cards in the future.
Bsaf says... #2
i thought the same thing recently, and everything you said seems true. the only other question i could think of was "is there a sword in modern which would blowout most decks and be degenerate to the format?". i didnt think so, but im interested as to what others think
September 19, 2015 4:15 p.m.