Strongest HUB
Modern forum
Posted on Oct. 12, 2017, 9:37 p.m. by Icbrgr
Specifically in the Modern format; Out of the available Hubs/deck types (Turbofog, Mill, Burn, 8-Rack, Affinity, Tron ECT. ECT.) do you believe to have the best cards available to be the most dominant in the format?
I'm assuming you aren't actually asking which deck IS the most dominant (mtgtop8.com), but are rather asking which T1 deck has the highest density of high power, high potential cards to take off with the release of Ixalan.
To that end I'd say Death's Shadow Aggro, as Chart A Course is a powerful draw engine which is easily activated by the deck, and has an incredibly high density of high power cards as it stands. Otherwise, maybe Merfolk finally sees that push into T1?
October 12, 2017 11:48 p.m.
How have i not seen chart a course? That card will absolutely see modern play!
October 12, 2017 11:55 p.m.
Storm, Tron, Affinity and control are all powerful archetypes
See this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#paper
October 13, 2017 8:48 a.m.
@seuvius Your right... for whatever reason thats what made sense to me at the time of me posting this.
@DuTogira yeah thats a lot closer to what i meant. and I tend to agree that with Opt and Chart A Course Illusions/merfolk or just aggro using has gotten a nice boost.
@DevoidMage I dont actually run Jund however i am particularly fond of Claim / Fame to be added to the cardpool.
@N4kk1/Truthfully everyone I was not thinking about Mtgtop8/Mtggolffish... i was more so thinking in terms of personal success whether thats going to FNM or just Kitchen table as well as owning in paper but; that's totally on me and my bad for not specifying.
October 13, 2017 9:49 a.m.
I would have to say the meta falls like this right now - deaths shadow and eldrazi taxes are the two most dominant decks in modern. After that likely comes vizier combo, storm, then uw control. Then you have everything else that's competitive on a pretty even playing field.
October 13, 2017 10:18 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #9
I had a hard time trying to figure out what is your even asking?
October 13, 2017 12:36 p.m.
@APPLE01DOJ basically what i was aiming for was to ask what deck type do you think is the strongest (or newfound potential) based on the cards now available in the modern format.... with the reprint of Opt and other new tools now available like Repeating Barrage and win conditions like Revel in Riches?
October 13, 2017 1:09 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #11
Well neither Repeating Barrage or Revel in Riches are going to make a ripple in the ocean of modern.
Affinity, Jund/Junk are always top decks with their own pros and cons. Eldrazi has unfortunately cemented it's place in magic as well. U/W Control has always been a fan favorite so it's no wonder we so much of it lately.
Personal opinion, I think Affinity is the strongest deck in modern. Even against 1 drop removal, (bolt, path, push) 1 sided board whipes (Shatterstorm, Creeping Corrosion) and crippling hate cards (Stony Silence) it can still secure wins. At its best it wins at turn 3 and at its worst it Inkmoth Nexus is a very real threat.
October 13, 2017 3:53 p.m.
anyone have any thoughts on Bant blink/flicker control? with things like Sailor of Means Deathgorge Scavenger Ashes of the Abhorrent?
October 13, 2017 4:34 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #13
There's a Bant Combo deck in modern called Knightfall. If you want to play Flicker you're much better off playing Eldrazi Taxes/Hatebears.
There's better options for those cards you listed. For instance Deathgorge Scavenger is just a worst Scavenging Ooze and with the exception of Soul Sisters any deck capable of running Ashes of the Abhorrent would rather run Rest in Piece or Grafdigger's Cage.
October 13, 2017 10:22 p.m. Edited.
APPLE01DOJ
Deathgorge Scavenger is not a worse Scavenging Ooze.
The only similarity between the two is that both grow, and gain life from consuming cards in graveyard.
The dino doesn't require any additional mana investment, to grow, and to heal you, instead it needs to survive attacking.
It really depends on what you play - if you can pay on turn 3 without causing any setback to your game, then go play ooze - otherwise the dino is superior, especially if your deck is packed full of removal like jund.
Ashes of the Abhorrent is of course no Rest in Peace - and for some decks like Living End, that is a enormous bonus.This card basically hoses other grave decks, while provides a large life swing against creature decks when Living End resolves - which can be crucial, if there are hasty flyers like - Mantis Rider, or pseudo hasty flyers, like a Restoration Angel cast at the end step - on the field that could kill you on the next turn.
Icbrgr
Bant flicker has been a thing for some time - and if you only take a superficial glance at the list it looks like a bunch of crap cards put together.
But when your overcosted creatures like Elvish Visionary, Wistful Selkie (or rogue refiner) draw your deck in response to mass flicker, and you can recur said flickering card via Eternal Witness things get very crazy very fast.
Not to mention that most traditional & popular deck tend to have hard time interacting with a board that Eerie Interlude/Ghostway in response.
(of course it doesn't have meta share so it's "unplayable shit")
October 19, 2017 10:12 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #15
Deathgorge Scavenger is far worse.
Which is more versatile?
Under normal conditions, Deathgorge can remove 1 card a turn. ScOoze can remove many at instant speed. ScOoze wins the Snapcaster battle Deathgorge doesn't.
Which is easier to activate?
ScOoze easily wins. 1 mana instant speed is much easier to work with than having to attack in modern with a body that dies to almost every modern 1 drop.
Survivability?
While both are initially vulnerable to every kill spell in the game, ScOoze can easily push itself out of Bolt and eventually Dismember range.
We can compare mana costs, the fact that ScOoze's gains are permanent, or even how they would fair in a head to head battle because ScOoze can just exile whatever Deathgorge attempts to in response.
In the Dino's defense, 2 life is better than 1 and not having to pay additional mana is certainly relevant, and noncreature spells are more common than creature spells.
I can't imagine Jund would ever run this. The body doesn't compare to Tarmogoyf, the versatility looses to Scavenging Ooze, the value isn't there when compared to Dark Confidant, and the impact isn't the same as slamming down a Liliana turn 3 instead.
October 19, 2017 12:37 p.m.
Modern is so wide open right now that you can win with about any archetype as long as you build it and pilot it well.
Out of just powerful cards I think that there are many cards that have a high power level in modern.
October 19, 2017 12:54 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ
Lightning Bolt is a burn spell, not removal.
If the desperation bolt has to go for the Scavenging Ooze or Deathgorge Scavenger its a reason to be happy, since you are likely having the upper hand.
I have to agree that Scavenging Ooze is a far superior grave hate card.
(Which is not saying much, as in my humble opinion both are pretty sub par compared to things like Rest in Peace)
Still having to pay for each activation is bad.
If nothing else you need to have that green mana - which can be trouble, if the opponent decides to mess with your mana base.
Now that you brought up Dark Confidant, lets think about it, whats better?
Spending your mana to exile from the grave, and having unused cards doing nothing in your hand (without mana to cast them)
or
Casting those spells/permanents you draw from Bob
I would say that the second option is far superior.That is why in my humble opinion cards like Olivia Voldaren look way better than how good they are (at least in modern), where the enormous amount of mana sunk into them could be better used to play more spell - which is possible due to the fact that modern has better card draw than standard.
October 19, 2017 2:42 p.m.
I think the thing you're not realizing, which is quite critical, is scavenging ooze is used as a one or two of in most decks that use it mainboard (which isn't many), and in most other cases it's a sideboard pick. Scavenging Ooze is a card that is used reactively, not to destroy someone's graveyard. In some odd cases it can be used as a beater, but most of the time it is used for disrupting graveyard play, such as gifts combo, storm, snapcaster made shenanigans, instant reanimator, dredge... you get my point. Deathgorge costs one more to play, and it has to enter the battlefield or attack. That defeats the purpose of a card like scavenging ooze, which is you can instantly respond to graveyard play. Hopefully you understand now, but just as a further point, I don't think the new "snooze" is going to see any play in modern. It's just not versatile enough.
October 19, 2017 4:25 p.m.
icehit6
A way to gain back some life in face of burn & life loss from Dark Confidant is very good to have.
I would say that is/was the main purpose of Scavenging Ooze in jund lists - and that is why they were replaced by Courser of Kruphix for some time.
Which is pretty necessary for decks that actively lose their own life.
There are way better cards to disrupt graveyard shenanigans, than Scavenging Ooze.
Even green has Ground Seal which, is a cantrip, an enchantment (thus most deck don't have any interaction with it in their 75), and stops the same problems that Scavenging Ooze works against.
(like gifts ungiven, storm, snapcaster mage... etc.)
P.s.: i would be interested to hear how exactly Scavenging Ooze is a threat to dredge.Since you can't response to the beginning of the draw step, and the replacement effect, i have trouble seeing how you would stop dredge from filling its graveyard. At best Scavenging Ooze may be able to exile some threat and gain you some life.
But its unlikely that you will have enough mana, in time to seriously cripple dredge with this creature.
October 19, 2017 4:42 p.m.
Scavenging Ooze is a niche card that exiles at instant speed, gains life, and can block if necessary. There are definitely cards that perform each individual function far better, but none that perform all three and fill that niche as well as scooze. In the case of deathgorge scavenger, it can't hate cards out of the yard at instant speed, and can't eat more than one card per turn. While it's technically more mana efficient than scooze, having mana sinks in your deck isn't a bad thing, because there will ALWAYS be games that go long where you have nothing better to do with your mana. Scooze is a Swiss Army knife. It's not great at anything, but it's good enough at a lot of things to be worth having.
Did I mention scooze is instant speed and can eat more than one card per turn? Yeah that's a big + for scooze. The more utility the better. Scooze is just a better Swiss Army knife than deathgorger
October 19, 2017 6:58 p.m.
I fully agree that Scavenging Ooze is more versitile.
However that doesn't make the its lifegain stronger, nor does it unmake the mana investment you later have to make to utilize this creature to its fullest.
Thus if you draw a lot of cards at the cost of your life, i would say its far from inconciveable that Deathgorge Scavenger would be superior, because it replenishes life faster, and leaves you more mana to cast the cards you drawn.
That is why i stated that the two cards are completely different.
Deathgorge Scavenger is a very good lifegain engine - nothing more or less (which uses the graveyard as fuel)
As far i am aware its better than ooze in this role.
Of course ooze can grow bigger
Of course ooze can hate graves more efficiently
(its like saying that Grim Lavamancer is a worse ooze because it doesn't hate on the graves, and doesn't get big...)
October 19, 2017 7:27 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #22
Well you're missing one key factor from your argument Xica a lot of the time the "extra mana" sunk into ScOoze is mana that was held open for removal.
October 19, 2017 7:56 p.m.
That is not necessarily true.
It depends on how much you draw, and whats your threat to removal ratio.
Its just my opinion, but i wouldn't build my deck so that i have the correct threat to removal ratio, to always have open mana to be able to spend on either removal or ooze,
October 19, 2017 8 p.m.
Xica, the problem that deathgorge has as a card is it doesn't fit in a turn 5 format. It goes for the long haul. Scavenging ooze, again, is a reactionary card. It has better lifegain. That's it. Ooze, while less mana efficient (arguable), it does more for a very small cost that most modern decks that play it can afford. As well, I've seen a lot of jund builds not run confidant, so lifegain to counteract the extra draws is irrelevant in some situations.
It's not a better card. And changing your argument to say deathgorge has better lifegain does not make it a better card. For example, what are you going to do if you attack, deathgorge will die? No more lifegain, no more graveyard play. All scooze costs is 1 mana
October 19, 2017 10:14 p.m.
icehit6
Where did i say that Deathgorge Scavenger is a better card than Scavenging Ooze?
They are good for completely different things.
Hence one is not strictly better than the other, as they don't do the same thing.
(Similarly to how Spellstutter Sprite and Snapcaster Mage don't do the same thing - one is more of a niche card, but it doesn't make it a worse version of the other card)
P.s.:I see the "modern is X turn format therefore ... card is unplayable" arguments as completely invalid.
There are decks that can goldfish t3 wins somewhat reliably, be it via pumping Hollow One, firing of Goblin Charbelcher, or just playing a lot of 0 mana artifacts creatures with Goblin Bushwhackers.
And in the same format there are viable grindy draw-go control, and prison decks - that play stuff like White Sun's Zenith X > 5 as their win condition.
October 20, 2017 3:59 a.m.
If I'm not mistaken, you said the second option is "far superior," second option referring to deathgorge. As well in your first post you reference mana costs and note that deathgorge is superior. Don't twist my words, I never said it was unplayable. I said it though doesn't fit in the format, which is true.
And yes while I agree with you there are always outliers in a format that will win really fast, or really slow, for the most part Modern is a turn 5 format. I've been keeping up with it consistently for the past 2 1/2 years and that aspect hasn't changed. Deathgorge is a card for the longhaul IF you can get it going. It's a turn three play that requires you to attack to use the effect, and if you risk losing it while attacking, it is three wasted mana.
In my opinion, I don't think Deathgorge is much better in any aspect when compared to scavenging ooze. On its own, the card is sub par and probably will only see play in standard.
seuvius says... #2
Not to be a dick but its archetypes, not hubs
October 12, 2017 10:10 p.m.