Tasigur, or dark confidant
Modern forum
Posted on April 23, 2015, 1:43 p.m. by ChiefBell
Modern has gone full circle and many Jund decks are surfacing that run Dark Confidant.
He was initially removed from BGR and BGW decks for two reasons. The first was the amount of aggro in the meta, which made his life loss unfavourable. The second was the printing of Tasigur, the Golden Fang, with a cmc of 6. Tasigur provided a better body, could be cast for cheaper, and had a card advantage ability too. The swap seemed natural.
The funny thing is that a few months later he's back - but the format hasn't changed too much. Sure delver has gone from over 10% stake in the meta to about 5%. But it's still prevalent! Burn is also a big player at the moment too. It is funny that the very environment that was deemed to be inhospitable for DC now sees him return - and as a strong player, given the Jund decks are really doing well.
So my question is this - Dark Confidant or Tasigur, the Golden Fang?
Which is better and why?
Personally - I like DC to be fueling control heavy decks; drawing the player into a lot of removal spells. I like Tasigur to be fueling creature heavy midrange decks that care less about card advantage and more about beating face. DC gives a slow, subtle advantage. Tasigur wants you to just turn him sideways. I prefer the playstyle DC encourages.
I like tasigur only because he's 4/5 body that I the right decks can be a turn 2 2 or 1 drop.
April 23, 2015 1:55 p.m.
DC fits nicely into midrange control decks that have a slightly facter clock than a real control deck. He does better than Tasigur in BG/x decks that include MORE killspells.
April 23, 2015 1:55 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #5
True, but in true control matches, A) the games will go usually pretty long if you've survived the first five turns of so and B) it can have pretty high CMC cards (Batterskull, for example, along with the boardwipes and all). When against something like burn, you'll likely be on very little life, and DC will finish you off very quickly.
April 23, 2015 1:58 p.m.
My preference is Tasiguar SB Confidant MB. Confidant is a must against decks like twin. You need that extra tempo. But against aggro, Tasigur just says HAAAAAAAAAAALLE NO! Tasigur just stomps aggro decks thats why my preference is both!
April 23, 2015 2 p.m.
You do not want DC in a true control deck with lots of high drops and very long games.
April 23, 2015 2:04 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #8
I like Bob better. People are underrating the Draw but it makes the deck that much more efficient.
April 23, 2015 2:14 p.m.
I like DC better - that being said, I run 1 of Tasigur even with 4 DC. They -HAVE- to answer DC. The card draw is just insane. For every 1 card they see, you see 2. I like that they have to answer him, and if they don't, even better for me.
April 23, 2015 2:29 p.m.
Bob>Tasigur. IMO
But that all depends on the shell.
Bob has major advantages over Tasigur in the sense that he can consistently drop on turn 2 for the turn 3 card advantage.
It's the fact that he's a lightning rod that cheeses me, Mind you people aren't to privy on hitting Bob with removal for fear of what might come after him.
Tasigur is a great body if you can get him out early enough, But his "Card advantage" isn't going to be NEARLY as useful as Bob's, Plus i'm not to keen to pay 4CMC to drop a couple cards in the yard and let my opponent choose. I would rather force the play than let them have the option.
April 23, 2015 2:38 p.m.
I think I prefer Tasigur, the Golden Fang for a few reasons:
There's the obvious doesn't die to Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay advantage, but I mostly prefer it because he allows you to play bigger stuff without such a huge downside (Bobing into a Batterskull doesn't feel so good). There's also the fact that 2 of the biggest decks in the current meta are looking to get you down quickly (Burn and Abzan), along with Twin's 2/1 beats plan that happens a decent amount.
April 23, 2015 3 p.m.
I'm super glad that Bob is back! I really like how you can now put huge amounts of pressure on your opponent in Jund again. I gave Banana King a real chance but more often than not, I would mill some bad cards and they'd be stuck in my hand. With bob however... Boy does it feel good to topdeck him, or T2 him against Abzan otp.
Bob is back, he is strong as ever and especially in Jund you should play him over Banana King.
April 23, 2015 3:02 p.m.
fzebib: The reason I don't play Dark Confidant much is exactly that: he HAS to be answered. And this is Modern, so he WILL be answered. A turn 2 Bob is almost guaranteed to be a wasted play EXACTLY because he's so scary and people won't leave him alone unless they drew the shittiest hand ever.
Some of the best creatures in Modern are weak, but are guaranteed to do some work before they die (Snapcaster Mage, Eidolon of the Great Revel); some don't have cool effects or triggers, but are very hard to kill, especially two turns in (Tarmogoyf, Spellskite and, of course, Tasigur, the Golden Fang); Bob is the only one (other than maybe Young Pyromancer) that has a weak body AND needs some time until he starts paying off.
Don't get me wrong, Bob is a powerhouse, but I have no idea why he became so popular again - not in this meta. Did everyone stop playing burn or something?
April 23, 2015 3:03 p.m.
No because if they use removal on him they have wasted a turn playing removal. If you then drop a goyf they're fucked. He's SUPPOSED to be answered. It's a trap. Damped if they do, dammed if they don't. Remember he costs 2 mana and most removal also costs 2 mana.
April 23, 2015 3:07 p.m.
@square711 if you play bob on T2 against Burn or Twin - I'm sorry, but you're doing it wrong. Even against opposing B/G/x decks it's rarely correct to play him T2. You want to grind your opponent out, trade 1 for 1 and then as the last threat you lay him down. Your opponent has to topdeck an answer or you will run away with the game.
It's usually: "Discard, Goyf/Ooze, Liliana, 4 Drop / removal - oh we both have no board and only 1 card left, let me play bob and you better have a removal as your last card or else you're screwed".
April 23, 2015 3:51 p.m.
yeah I agree bob late game is amazing - sometimes you can use him as a trap though. Depends on situation and if you were able to see opponents hand, etc.
April 23, 2015 4:49 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #23
It dying to removal isn't a reason to not play it, Your opponent doesn't always have it, And you have X T1 Discard spells to clear the way for it.
My vote is simply, Why not both?
April 23, 2015 7:05 p.m.
Because drawing a tas off a bob is sometimes an insta loss.
April 23, 2015 7:06 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #25
In certain matchups yes, Isn't it very marginal? You run like 2 Tasigurs?
Say there is 51 cards in your deck on the upkeep of turn 3 and the 2 Tasigurs are in your deck still, That is quite a small chance to hit him.
April 23, 2015 7:13 p.m.
With my current Junk build I am running 1 Tasigur and no Bob. I haven't really liked the rhino with Bob much. But I own a playset of him and would love to shove him in my deck.
April 23, 2015 10:19 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #27
In Junk, you can easily live through a Tasigur revealed from Bob.
In Jund, it's definitely harder to come back, but having a single Tasigur gives you more options. The chance of drawing a Tasigur is low, so running one would not feel overly dangerous. Running Courser of Kruphix or Kitchen Finks alongside Bob feels like gas, though.
I would like to disagree with ChiefBell's statement that removing a Bob is also a loss. Spell Snare is effectively removal, because it hits Bob and Goyf. Bolt is also good to use on Bob, because not everything in a BGx deck dies to bolt. Bolting a Bob is a classic play, similar to bolting a Noble Hierarch. I never feel bad doing it, and never really feel like there was a huge negative consequence. Removing the engine is a win for a control deck.
April 24, 2015 3:21 a.m.
Is it ever popular to run 2 or 3 bobs in a junk deck? Something to draw into as gas.
April 24, 2015 6:24 a.m.
I've seen some lists run 2 or 3 Dark Confidant and I say screw that bullshit. You either run 4 and fully embrace him as a whole, with all his weaknesses and strengths or you don't but don't treat him like that unwanted child, that suddenly turns into a successful business man. Same goes for Liliana of the Veil 4 or nothing. She's the Queen of alle black mages, running less than 4 is an insult. If it weren't for her I wouldn't be playing black at all. Yes I played her during the Treasure Cruise era, yes it sometimes hurt but still: I stayed true to her and one day my loyalty will pay back!
April 24, 2015 7:27 a.m.
What the hell? Running dark confidant with +30% of the field being splinter twin and burn? With tasigur AND rhino!? In the 3 color cardinal master deck of killing yourself with your own cards?!
Great idea guys. Faeries tier 1, #unbanblazingshoal, Mental misstep isn't broken, storm auto-loses to Leyline of Sanctity, Grafdigger's Cage is the best card vs living end, we need to ban tarmogoyf.
April 24, 2015 11:26 a.m.
It was done before and it can be done again. Note that 40% of BGx decks are land - lose you no life when you draw them.
also 30% of the meta is not burn and twin. When DC was dropped delver was at 15% and burn was a tad over 5%. That was aggro heavy. In games where the winner is decided by t3 or T4 you do not need DC. In metas where the game will go to T5, T6, T7: you want DC to give that mid to long game advantage.
April 24, 2015 11:48 a.m.
There was no replacement for confidant at the time, there is now.
I never said it wasn't used prior to tasigur being printed, I said its stupid to run dark confidant right now instead of tasigur. Nothing in your post leads me to believe otherwise either, you basically said "people used to up run it until a much much better card for the metagame was printed." and that point isn't even valid. People were opting against confidant even back then for very obvious reason: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8718&d=249806&f=MO
The other junk deck sparingly ran 2 in the MB, which isn't a bad idea tbh, but clearly a terrible idea with tasigur now in the format.
April 24, 2015 12:03 p.m.
Tasigur leads in a completely separate direction. His ability is lackluster and he offers little except his body. He is suited to aggro and creature based matches. He came into fashion because a 4/5 t3 against an aggro deck can spell doom. He does not replace confidant. He has a separate niche.
Some people opting against DC does not make it a bad card - especially when they are in the minority. Notice how that guy ran courser which virtually no one plays now.
The meta game has changed. Games are going longer. A 4/5 on t3 is not necessarily the powerhouse it was. DC can come back into fashion. Tasigur has his place and is very good. DC has his place as well. Neither is strictly better than the other. It is important to remember that as the meta changes we need to change our card choices.
April 24, 2015 12:12 p.m.
@PutrefyAgreed. I run 4x Bob and he'll never come out of that spot. He's so much gas attached to a little beater body.
Him with a solas or sofaf is just rude.
And I have zero problems with people bolting Bob. Actually I expect him to eat removal every time I plan him. If he doesn't that's just extra gas for me.
April 24, 2015 12:17 p.m.
Chief, I don't think those opting against DC in Abzan are a minority. Just check out any recent Abzan list, DC is practically non existent except for Jund.
I'm not saying he is bad, but the general population is favoring Tasigur in the Rhino builds.
April 24, 2015 12:20 p.m.
Now yes he is often excluded.
Back in time he was not often excluded.
April 24, 2015 1 p.m.
Wouldn't you say that the meta is considerably different now? He was included right after TC bannings, but he faded away pretty quickly.
April 24, 2015 1:47 p.m.
I like Banana-King, because I don't have to give up my kidney to play him.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #2
I'm more a fan of Tasigur because I like to play control decks, and DC doesn't offer the same kind of advantage, even killing you over time, while Tasigur can get back your counters and stuff when you run dry. I can see why DC is a more attractive options to aggro-ish decks, because he keeps your fuel coming and can be dropped earlier. So I guess it depends on A) what deck you're playing and B) what the meta is like.
April 23, 2015 1:52 p.m.