The lack of Modern control
Modern forum
Posted on May 26, 2015, 2:30 p.m. by 2austin5
Hello everyone! When observing the modern format, it becomes very clear that it is dominated by aggro decks and combo decks.
To me, this is a sense of stagnation in a format. While modern does evolve and it does change, it always seems to change in direction of aggro and combo. The control archetypes (Tron, etc) end up being tier 1.5/2 depending on the meta whereas them main aggro (affinity, burn) and combo (bloom titan, infect, twin variations) are always the tier one without having to worry so much about the meta.
What is it that control does not have to keep a place at tier 1 in modern? What control decks, if any, stand a chance to get their and keep a place? Something Ive been looking at for a bit is Bant control, as I see within it the cards that can be used effectively both within itself and against the meta.
What are everyone else's thoughts? Can control break in and shake things up a bit? Is there a list that can be worked into the meta?
Thank you and discuss away!
EndStepTop says... #2
smackjack I'd rather Terminus the Damn thing or reveal snappy off Counterbalance. Its a blast ;)
May 26, 2015 5:11 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #3
Isn't Scapeshift considered a control deck (even though its win condition is combo)?
My understanding is that the format is a bit too fast for traditional control strategies to gain purchase.
May 26, 2015 5:15 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #4
Scapeshift is a combo deck, like ANT in legacy or twin uses enough control spells to not lose before dropping a win.
May 26, 2015 5:17 p.m.
I think it is more aggro/control at the moment and it doesn't need to be something else. I mean Zur Tempo just got 5th at a 273 player Premier IQ.
May 26, 2015 5:39 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #7
Well, to save control, there is only one and only one possibility... :p
May 26, 2015 5:59 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #8
can we just ban snapcaster and be done with it? Jesus it was a colossal mistake.
May 26, 2015 7:24 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #9
Brace for a wall of words from a dedicated Control player.
Ever since the ban of Birthing Pod, Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise Control decks have suffered greatly due to a lack of answers to the various threats that can be marshaled against them. In Modern, as kyuuri117 pointed out, Control decks must be proactive in Modern, since they lack a catchall counterspell like Force of Will. This is a perfectly reasonable solution, however saying, "I feel like people are not willing enough to experiment with control in modern" is utterly false and undervalues Control players. Modern simply lacks adequate tools to build an effective control deck. Notably, Modern lacks cheap draw spells.
Moving onto some of the things stated by Ixidron. Firstly, sources. If you're going to make such bold claims then I want your sources. Secondly, most of what you posted is utter subjective nonsense. Your preferred way to play Magic should have no impact on the type of deck I choose to play. Spewing nonsense about Wizards printing policies without substantial evidence is absurdly asinine. I concur that control cards might be harder to balance, but we must also keep in mind that Wizards does not test anything for Modern. In fact Wizards doesn't even print cards with Modern in mind (which is another conversation all together).
To Serendipitous_Hummingbird and KillDatBUG banning Snapcaster Mage is not only unwarranted, but it would do more harm than good.
As I have already stated Control lacks the proper tools for this meta game. I consider that concerning, but it is concerning because Wizards does not particularly care about supporting Modern in an active sense. I fully admit that Control cannot always be a top contender, but if you look at even the fringe decks you won't find a control list. I think what is so bothersome about this is that it locks players out of their favourite archetype. A lack of Control is why I am currently on hiatus from Modern. And that same lack of Control decks goes against the spirit of the Modern format. Modern is supposed to be about playing what you wish, but even when the noncompetitive scene turns into one where a Control list cannot be found, I would say that it is cause for concern.
May 26, 2015 7:49 p.m.
Snapcaster, Thoughtseize, Goyf, Bolt and Path to Exile are probably the best cards in their respective colors in modern. Each are pretty damn overpowered for their casting cost. Which is exactly why they are played. Just because you don't like snapcaster doesn't mean it was a mistake or that it needs to be banned.
Edit: @serendip
May 26, 2015 7:51 p.m. Edited.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #12
Thoughtseize, goyf, bolt, and path are all mistakes. They just aren't colossal enough to merit banning.
WotC even admitted that a clerical error led to goyf seeing print as a 
rather than a 
creature.
But at the end of the day, these cards have their limits. Goyf is a dumb beater. He's the best at what he does, but he can't do much more.
A late game thoughtseize is not gonna do much good on an opponent who has already emptied their hand.
Bolt can't hit x/4, and needs to get an opponent within 3 to kill.
But snappy can be anything. Burn spell, counterspell, cantrip, kill spell, dig, disruption, fix your draws, anything really.
The only card as blatantly broken as snappy in modern is bolt, and bolt serves the absolutely necessary purpose of keeping zoo variants in check.
May 26, 2015 8:04 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #13
Serendipitous_Hummingbird you cannot assert that these cards are "mistakes" without evidence. I will state this again, since you clearly missed it: Wizards does not print cards for Modern. They print cards with Standard and Limited in mind. Your subjective feelings do not change that.
May 26, 2015 8:54 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #14
I like Kiki-Control, It is somewhat favoured against a decent amount of the field and the combo works as a crutch.
I'm working on UWRB which is performing well, If Ojutai hits you are usually winning.
I stand by the idea that a control deck exists it just hasn't been found yet.
May 26, 2015 9:36 p.m.
Serendipitous_Hummingbird says... #15
CanadianShinobi in 'Grave Consqequences, Part 2, Maro writes
"I turned [tarmogoyf] in as a /. While I'm a huge fan of Lhurgoyf, I never liked the +1 toughness. I feel like it added inelegance for the sole purpose of keeping the card alive on an empty graveyard, so when I made my Lhurgoyf riff, I made it / instead. Ironically, the card got kicked out of the file to make room for a planeswalker (the card that would later become the first Garruk). When we pushed off the planeswalkers, Tarmogoyf got stuck back into the file. Mike Turian, Future Sight's lead developer, recreated the card from memory and just assumed it had /*+1 because it was copying Lhurgoyf. Mike also dropped the card from to because he felt as it was "just a beater without evasion" it didn't need to cost three mana. The rest, as they say, is history."
There's your evidence for goyf.
Now for snappy, we go to Zac Hill's article " Gonna Hate", where he writes
"I'll be real with you. We messed up with Snapcaster Mage.
I'm not going to sit here and look you in the eye and tell you that Snapcaster Mage is a fair Magic card. Nor am I going to blame any of my colleagues for the problem: I worked with Tiago Chan to design it, and by the time we realized exactly how powerful it was in concert with the abundance of one-mana cantrips in Standard, the card was already out the door. We knew it was something we were going to have to attack in order to keep Standard in check. The challenge was deciding how best to do that."
Granted, he was talking about the flashback mana leaks that plagued standard. But regardless of format, a broken card is broken. A bad design is a bad design.
I have no evidence to say that Path to Exile Lightning Bolt or Thoughtseize are mistakes, and frankly I regret calling them "mistakes" earlier. They were all more powerful than designers had originally anticipated, but that does not make them degenerate. They all serve very important roles in the modern meta. Even goyf, a card Mark Rosewater himself said was a clerical error, is not degenerate.
May 26, 2015 9:48 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #16
Serendipitous_Hummingbird because something is very strong in one format does NOT make it stong in another. By your logic sphinx's rev and supreme verdict should be making modern control a house. It did in standard. Just because goyf is an undercosted beater doesn't make it too strong for the format. Nor does Snappy's hay day in standard make it degeneratly strong in modern.
May 26, 2015 10:09 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #17
Snap and Goyf are much better in Modern than they ever would have been in Standard.
May 26, 2015 10:11 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #18
bijschjdbcd while this is very true, the point stands that just because something is powerful, does not make it broken. And yet, Serendipitous_Hummingbird has asserted that Snapcaster Mage is a broken card. This is simply not true. Broken cards get banned in Modern and Wizards is all too happy to swing the ban hammer. Without Snapcaster Mage any hope of a control deck would fall apart in Modern currently.
May 26, 2015 10:36 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #19
I agree that is most definitely not a broken card.
I never agreed that it should be banned, Merely stated that it is simply unfair to compare it's effectiveness in both formats.
May 26, 2015 10:39 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #20
If you think Snapcaster Mage should be banned you flat out suck at magic.
As someone else pointed out Control really needs aggro beaters to be effective in this meta. Waiting for Celestial Colonnade to become online feels like forever.
May 26, 2015 11:51 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #21
Curved Spell Pierce into Remand into Render Silent today then followed it up with a T5 Quicken+Supreme Verdict :)
The cards are there... The draw is there... Mana Leak is not the way to get there xD. Gitaxian Probe Repeal Think Twice Wall of Omens Squelch Hindering Light Cryptic Command
May 26, 2015 11:58 p.m. Edited.
mymanpotsandpans says... #22
Is Boros Stax viable for a seat at the table? It has controlling elements and some of the main board cards need to be answered for some strategies to have a fighting chance. Things like Leyline of Sanctity, Blood Moon and Ghostly Prison just cause problems for a few popular strategies. After looking at some deck lists most of the decks problem cards can be Abrupt Decayed though. I'm thinking of putting a paper version together soon.
May 27, 2015 12:30 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #23
Not really. That deck has almost no game plan against aggro.
Spell Pierce is interesting seems fine maindecked against a fair chunk of the field.
Mana Leak is fine, If you're worried about it being dead late game then im unsure how you can justify playing Pierce for the same reasons.
Gideon is spicy.
May 27, 2015 12:55 a.m.
kyuuri117, I would have to argue that delver is superior to Snapcaster in modern as the best blue card, at least in the current meta. The rest I totally agree with.
May 27, 2015 1:44 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #25
Sided in the Spell Pierces specifically for Liliana of the Veil used it on something else though.
May 27, 2015 1:59 a.m.
FreddyFlash311 says... #26
Speaking of Modern control and card draw and all that...
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-calebd-modern-swans/
May 27, 2015 3:15 a.m.
Here is a fixed version of FreddyFlash311's link.
I like what I saw the deck do. - You have to watch all 3 videos to get a real feel for it. - It's unfortunate that the first 2 match-up's are against the same deck type... and that the deck type is probably one of this decks best match-up. Would be better to see the deck at it's 'roughest', where it really has to work hard.
May 27, 2015 12:43 p.m.
FreddyFlash311 says... #29
Sorry about that, I was out and on my phone. But yeah, I thought it was interesting. CalebD is always entertaining, and the decklist was an interesting take
May 27, 2015 1:44 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #30
Pretty interesting list. But instead of Soulfire Grand Master, I would put in some Lightning Helix. It's harder for RDW to deal with this one :p
May 27, 2015 2:19 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #32
It's a skred-wafotapo hybrid control deck. Hugely well positioned vs aggro decks but i would like to see it run vs abzan and jund
May 27, 2015 3:27 p.m.
I would like to point out that he is using Ojutai in that list.
May 27, 2015 3:31 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #34
Ojutai is a nice -and cheap- evasive beater which gives you some nice CA! Yup', maybe Batterskull would be a more common choice, but it wouldn't be as good as Ojutai here since the deck has already some other ways to gain life (even if I'd replace both Grandmaster by Lightning Helix), so this dragonlord has its place here. Thundermaw Hellkite could be fine too, as a wonderful win condition. But it would place the deck on a more aggro path.
About other control shell, I'll link klone13 here and this super cool control deck he made! :>
May 27, 2015 5:01 p.m.
I like the idea of adding the second Vend Clique and dropping a grandmaster. Think that's a good idea.
I actually thought that Cryptic Command wasn't very good here. Maybe it was just the match-ups but it just seems like the wrong shell for it.
May 27, 2015 5:05 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #36
Playing cryptic in a three colored deck that runs a lot of basics and needs red mana to work well is pretty cocky, to say... Ojutai's command would be castable but quite bad here.
Guys, what are your thoughts on Monastery Mentor in modern? I've played him a lot, and he's a real lightning rod. But if you let him free for a single turn, it's game over... So, worth?
May 27, 2015 5:08 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #37
It depends. You really need to cast him with either a means to activate him immediately or ways to defend him immediately. If your deck can do that then it should be fine
May 27, 2015 5:10 p.m.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #38
Jund is one of the most successful control decks in modern, I don't really know what your on about. It's not control in the standard sense (Esper standard usually runs between 3-6 creatures). It plays around 12 threats, removal and taking 2 for 1s wherever it can. It also has one of the best card advantage engines, Dark Confidant
May 28, 2015 5:51 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #39
Jund is midrange, I think that was already argued. Also Bob has been seeing a lot less play, most b/g/x decks are just trying to play bigger threats than other decks, and Bob is bad with that plan.
May 28, 2015 5:58 p.m.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #40
Effecient beaters and removal along with card advantage. Seems like control
May 28, 2015 6:01 p.m.
EndStepTop says... #41
Control doesn't play particularly efficient threats, usually a handful of utuility creatures and then 1/2 win cons. Aetherling/Entreat the angels/collonade aren't efficient. But goyf/Bbe are very efficient. Midrange tries to outvalue the opponent. Where control suppresses the for and drops 1 powerful threat.
May 28, 2015 6:08 p.m.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #42
I.E., jund dropping a 2 goyf and then removing everything in its way. It is proactive control, like Delver. Reactive control is very bad in modern, which is why that grixis control list someone linked ran 3-4 Tasigur. Standard control is very reactive. Modern cannot be reactive at all.
Abzan however is not a control deck, because of its sharp curve and value. Jund is because, to restate, it pro actively sets up a clock and then removes opponents threats.
May 28, 2015 6:25 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #43
Negative, It is most definitely a controlling archetype but in no way pure control.
That swans deck is gas, Anger plus Soulfire is really really good against Burn if you can pull it off.
May 28, 2015 6:54 p.m.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #44
I made this thread to discuss Jund. Don't post here about it.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-forum/modern/jund-is-life/#c2113846
FreddyFlash311 says... #1
I agree a lot with kyuuri117. I don't think it's so much that the cards aren't there as it is that people haven't figured it out yet. You can't just toss together last month's control list and say it'll do. You need the right answers and you need your deck to evolve to properly combat the metagame.
May 26, 2015 5:11 p.m.