The State of Modern
Modern forum
Posted on April 16, 2015, 8:19 a.m. by FAMOUSWATERMELON
Last night, I had a conversation with some users here (CanadianShinobi, klone13 and Ryotenchi) about Modern and we agreed that it was doing pretty terribly. According to MTGtop8, U/R twin, RDW, Affinity and Junk take up a huge 47% of the meta right now, and control decks in general are plummeting at a measly 13% of the meta. So what do you guys think should be done (by WoTC, primarily)? What cards do you hope to see in upcoming spoilers? What decks do you think could potentially rise?
DISCUSSION!!
Dalektable says... #3
Banning certainly isn't the answer, I know that much. If anything wizards should unban some things on the ban list to raise the power level of modern a bit, IMO, and a couple more tier 1-2 playable decks would be created. But besides that, as for things to be printed? Man, how are we to know? I have no Idea what could be reprinted that would dramatically change the face of modern. Regardless, I don't think modern is too bad right now. All the big decks are fairly interactive currently which is better than the alternative, IMO. Regardless, It can be improved still as everything can.
April 16, 2015 8:26 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #4
Bring back extended in it's place? But for real, if saving modern is your thing unbannings are a great thing to do. Word could also use the banhanmer with a far less heavy hand, letting players adapt to strong cards or printing new ones instead of banning them.
April 16, 2015 8:26 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #5
Dalektable junk midrange has become less interactive , running more creatures recently and Rdw and affinity are barely caring what the opponent does. This has been a big complaint from a lot of pros(Ari led, Owen turtenwald recently).
April 16, 2015 8:29 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #6
Control is a more difficult archetype to pilot as well as more expensive than Burn or Affinity w/Mox Opals. I think less of it simply means there are more newer players playing.
I consider Junk a control deck. The heart of the deck is still the MBC shell.
April 16, 2015 8:35 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #7
As much as I respect Owen as a player and pro, He once said RTR Theros standard was the best format.
He loses his vote on this one.
April 16, 2015 8:35 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #8
APPLE01DOJ Yes, control is definitely more difficult to play. However, even by its standards, it's very low. I would expect it to be around 25% most of the time.
April 16, 2015 8:37 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #9
Blue based control has an awful matchup against b/g decks and has got a very poor card pool by comparison. Its been slipping in use for a long time. Junk currently runs Lilly's, thoughtseizes and abrupt decays, if my memory serves me. A far cry from a control shell.
April 16, 2015 8:38 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #10
However to stay on topic. Unban Deathrite Shaman unban Birthing Pod unban Dig Through Time & let's have some fun.
Each of these cards will enable "new" archetypes to flourish.
DRS was so sick in Pox.
April 16, 2015 8:38 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #11
We just need more power in the format. Dig should certainly come back.
Bloodbraid Elf would certainly be a great re-addition.
WotC need to print more interactive cards, rather than individually good ones.
April 16, 2015 8:39 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #12
bijschjdbcd he said it was interactive and out of the 2 decks , those decks had large descision trees that would reward you for skilled play. He didn't say it was "the best standard".
April 16, 2015 8:40 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #13
It's hardly an awful matchup, I mean what deck isn't vulnerable to Thought Seize into Lily.
Besides all that ots a relatively close matchup.
April 16, 2015 8:40 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #14
APPLE01DOJ I would almost be tempted to agree with DRS, because it would bring Jund back to oppose Abzan. But then you just make Abzan better, as well.
We should get Hypergenesis and Ancestral Vision unbanned. That would be fun. Just anything to power up the format randomly. I believe Bloodbraid is the best possible addition.
April 16, 2015 8:41 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #15
It was at the top of his list, Forgive me for nor clarifying the specifics of the article.
April 16, 2015 8:41 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #16
No those cards are what makes it a Control deck. Thoughtseizes Liliana of the Veil and all the spot removal. There is Control of the blue type which is more counter based and there is control of the black type which focuses on controlling the board state.
April 16, 2015 8:43 a.m.
EndStepTop says... #17
Counterspell/swords to plowshares and sense's top could all be reprinted/unbanned respectfully alongs Drs/BBe/ancestral. At least it's be a start.
April 16, 2015 8:46 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #18
Midrange is the term technically.
And I was stating that the matchup is very close from a UWR Perspective.
The old BGx decks were super grindy and designed to out attrition your opponent, That was a bad matchup for control.
April 16, 2015 8:46 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #19
Yeah, I'm with bijschjdbcd on this one about Turtenwald. I really hated RTR-THS standard, and it put me off Magic quite a lot, but I got really into modern around then. RTR-THS standard was absolutely disgusting, and I never want that to happen again, even as a non-standard player.
But probably the only thing holding modern back is the people who straight away go to the 'best' decks. It's not standard. Mono B devotion isn't instantly the best deck. By playing the 'best' deck, people are not helping diversity in the format. If more people looked at Zoo, Living End, Scapeshift, or extended their range beyond boring UR Twin into Grixis and Jeskai (which has been done, thankfully), the format would be way better.
Abzan is not strictly the best deck, nor is Twin. I want people to find the deck that suits them, not them get used to a deck that is good.
April 16, 2015 8:47 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #21
RTR/M14 was my favorite standard. RTR/Theros right before rotation had some sick powerful decks. Wish that bit of Standard could have went on a bit longer.
April 16, 2015 8:47 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #22
That would create a fairly Degenerate format introducing a bunch of legacy cards.
April 16, 2015 8:48 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #23
It's way easier to play against current Abzan than old, glorious Jund. I really, really liked old Jund, and it's nice to see people like Reid Duke sticking by it, rather than flocking straight to the 'best' deck.
More respect to him for playing Hexproof a couple years ago. He's a positive influence on modern.
April 16, 2015 8:48 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #24
I enjoyed the RTR/theros standard, And I see where Owen was coming from, But I played UW Control.
Regardless this isn't the forum to chat about old standards.
April 16, 2015 8:50 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #25
Yes, let's stay on topic. What I hope to see soon are some cards that support underplayed decks in the format (Living End, Ad Nauseam, ect...) so that we can shake Modern up a bit. Also some stuff for control to thrive on.
April 16, 2015 8:54 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #26
Well the format takes a lot of playing before you understand what does and doesn't work. I know the first card I wanted to play in modern was a 7 drop... It's a lot easier to invest your money in a proven formula.
April 16, 2015 8:54 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #27
I think online is just stale cause we need some mm15 spoilers already lol
April 16, 2015 8:56 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #28
First off, Modern is fairly diverse. There is a fairly large number of decks archetypes that are viable in the format, and the tier 2 decks are still able to compete with the tier 1 decks without significant help.
The cards I could see being unbanned to help the state of Modern would be Bloodbraid Elf and Sword of the Meek. BBE would help diversify the Abzan decks into Jund as well, so we would have different midrange. Sword of the Meek would help control, since it would have a value finisher that could also be a combo finish. It is a little more reliable than the typical Restoration Angel/Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker of Jeskai, and is significantly cheaper than the Tarmogoyf beatdown plan of Sultai.
I could also argue for Ancestral Vision and Dig Through Time, but Wizards doesn't really like blue things. Both would help out a bunch of tier 2 strategies and control in general, but it would also mean that Twin and Scapeshift would become the top decks.
Also @FAMOUSWATERMELON, you say that control is only at 13% of the meta. However, Twin is a combo/control hybrid, and Scapeshift is a control deck with a combo finish. If we also counted those in the control category, then that adds another 17% of the meta to it, bringing it to 30% of the meta. Control is still a thing, just that pure control isn't.
April 16, 2015 9:17 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #29
lemmingllama To be honest, I don't really agree with how they make categories, since I consider Junk to be more midrange than aggro, but I'm simply referring to what they said. However, there are also barely any pure control decks left. On my time on untap, I have yet to see a single cruel control deck.
April 16, 2015 9:20 a.m.
Green Sun's Zenith unban hype train
also, Bloodbraid Elf and Hypergenesis
April 16, 2015 9:29 a.m.
I'm looking at those numbers, and it's telling me something completely different.
Over the last 2 months, no archetype is over 14% (Twin)
Over the past 2 Weeks, no archetype is over 15% (RDW)
To me, this seems a whole lot healthier than ~35% Pod (pre pod banning), or ~30% Delver + ~25% Burn splash Cruise (pre Cruise banning).
April 16, 2015 9:29 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #32
Yeah, the issue is that they don't really have a midrange category and there are a lot of hybrid decks that fit into multiple categories.
Also people dislike playing control online because it involves a lot of triggers and handling complicated priority/stack interactions. It's much easier to turn creatures sideways after using your Liliana or just show the Twin combo and say "I win". I find that people play control a lot more in real life. My local meta has a lot of Twin, Scapeshift, Jeskai Control, and Merfolk players.
April 16, 2015 9:30 a.m.
Unban Jace? He's a very primarily control only card. I've been preaching for months that we need to reward control players and take something away from Azban. Maybe printing a legal Memory Lapse would help, because that card would be awesome in control but not good in combo.
April 16, 2015 9:30 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #34
Rayenous Well it's definitely better than when Pod was around, but the fact that four deck alone take up half of the meta is fairly scary to me.
April 16, 2015 9:32 a.m.
Maybe unban Cloudpost, Divining Top, I've always wanted to see Bloodbraid back... and Sword of the Meek would be great too.
April 16, 2015 9:35 a.m.
Oh and I second unbanning Hypergenesis. I would love to see a cool cascade thing trying to land a turn 3 Emrakul haha.
April 16, 2015 9:37 a.m.
4 decks making half the meta means it is now taking twice the number of decks to make up half the meta as compared to the past 2+ years.
Much healthier.
I do see a lack of control decks at 13% for all control decks combined... though I agree that 'where' some decks fall is a matter of interpretation.
For example, my home-brew Polymorph deck isn't really combo as there is no infinite combo, it's just gimmicky. - It's not really control as it doesn't care much about my opponent having a board state. - It's certainly not aggro or midrange as it only has 3 creatures and a couple token generators.
I would assume they would classify the deck as control due to the Mana Leak and Supreme Verdict, but it's really not anything in the the classifications this site uses.
April 16, 2015 9:45 a.m.
I do feel that modern is stale, I think if we go back to Lorwyn, and get good tribal support for modern we can get some real fun variety.
April 16, 2015 10:01 a.m.
Honestly I think this is a very healthy modern compared to recently. Like during cruise and pods run it was play pod, or UR delver or lose. When DRS was around it was play jund or lose. This is the first time in a while that I don't think any changes should be made in modern my only issue is that removal now is evaluated on if it can kill siege rhino. I highly disagree with the unbanned things chatter because these decks would get even more powerful (I.e. DRS goes into abzan and dig could probably find a home in twin or put other combos way over the top)
I agree with what someone mentioned earlier that the lack of control is probably at least partly due to a lot of new magic players getting into modern. I think the other bit is that there's no decent counterspells that are catch alls for U other than cryptic. I'm not saying give them force of will and visions and everything else. I'm just saying actually reprinting Counterspell could go a long way and it could be all a control deck really needs.
April 16, 2015 10:13 a.m.
Dig Through Time needs to be unbanned, and only Dig really. It would give the Control decks the card needed to find answers and pull ahead. It would also help some of the combo decks like Scapeshift and the tempo oriented Delver decks. It's not oppressive enough to push decks aside like Cruse did, but finds that nice balance between being very powerful but not powerful enough to warp the format.
April 16, 2015 10:21 a.m.
GeminiSpartanX says... #41
Id advise everyone here to browse the different decks that top 8'd in both tcgplayer Modern states as well as SCG Modern states in the past few weeks. I know I saw Ad Nauseam win one as well as a Soul Sisters build. I think that this idea that there are only a few different decks being played in Modern is being perpetuated inaccurately. There are certain decks that have a gameplan that care very little about what an opponant does, and those decks generally do well in a large format like a Grand Prix. However there are plenty of decks and ideas that beat the 'best' modern decks, at the expense of having bad matchups elsewhere. I've won local tournaments with a GW beatdown deck, Modern Mill, and Monowhite Prison. It's not that the format is unhealthy, it's really just the lack of people willing to put the work into learning and making a rouge deck good enough to compete against the other decks people copy/paste from the pros imho.
April 16, 2015 10:32 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #42
So instead of suggesting something that would or could never happen (ie, unban jace), I would say that we unban Preordain so that combo / tempo decks have another tool to work with, and then just print some sort of marginal control card that starts giving advantage turn one. Like the control deck's goyf, maybe you land it turn two or whatever, and it gains you a life and each player sacs a creature every turn or whatever. Make it an enchantment or something else hard to deal with, and it'd be a great tool to help the control or non-creature-oriented decks get ahead.
April 16, 2015 10:54 a.m.
Why are people entertaining the idea of unbanning Ancestral Vision? It's a more powerful Treasure Cruise and that got banned because it was another Ancestral Recall. Sensei's Divining Top won't be unbanned because it takes too much time to play with it and regularly causes matches to go overtime, which is why it's banned.
Counterspell being reprinted sounds great run 4x snapcaster 4x remand 4x counterspell. That won't break anything!
Seriously though, Hypergenesis looks like fun and you can't have it for a few turns, so you opponent can prepare.
April 16, 2015 10:56 a.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #44
I think that unbanning the already sketchily-banned Dig Through Time could give Control some reach.
April 16, 2015 11:09 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #45
FAMOUSWATERMELON mentioned that unbanning certain cards would turn Modern into a watered down version of Legacy. Where is the harm in that?
I may find the current metagame of Modern stale and boring because it doesn't allow me to play control, but I won't deny that the game itself is generally fairly healthy. That being said, I find it funny that certain lists are performing equally as well as Delver and Pod were a couple of months ago and no one is calling for a ban. But, we're all a little too focused on the cards and not the people in charge of printing the cards.
The problem with Modern, quite frankly is Wizards. If Wizards has shown anything in the past year it is that they do not know what they want to do with Modern as a format. It clearly isn't Standard, but they can't even call it a weaker Legacy because Modern lacks power. Wizards seems to be heavily focused on printing more efficient creatures, such as Siege Rhino and has, frankly abandoned, at least from what I have observed, making powerful spells, such as Counterspell. Yes, occasionally an Abrupt Decay shows up, but since ISD these cards have been far and few between. Wizards promotes Modern, but doesn't want to invest in Modern. Modern is a weird middle ground that is safe for investors, but lacks explosiveness, especially since Wizards has begun to ban problems instead of solve them through testing, printing and knowing what they want Modern to be.
April 16, 2015 11:12 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #46
Disfigure you clearly lack an appreciation and understanding of Control if you feel that Counterspell is an inherently broken card. And yes, I am quite serious. Control decks lack a catch all response and to be viable control decks need to have a catch all response. Currently Control under performs because other decks possess more threats than Control has answers for. The only concern I have is what Counterspell would do for Twin decks. Either way, Modern needs to be more powerful with noncreature spells, because walking the middle ground is no longer viable when Wizards is printing better and better creatures.
April 16, 2015 11:17 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #47
CanadianShinobi Theoretically there would be no problem with a second legacy... except that it would be exactly that, a second legacy. In other words two very very similar formats.
April 16, 2015 11:19 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #48
Wizards has been quoted several times saying that they refuse to make modern into poor-man's legacy.
April 16, 2015 11:22 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #49
I hardly see how giving Control decks a catch all answer is making Modern into a secondary Legacy. My main complaint with Wizards is how they handle Modern. I never advocated for it to be a secondary Legacy, I simply advocate that the power of Modern gets pushed, slightly. Especially if Wizards is going to keep printing better and better creatures.
April 16, 2015 11:40 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #50
"unbanning certain cards would turn Modern into a watered down version of Legacy. Where is the harm in that?"
Well, I mean...
Anyway, how would you solve the problem of 'creatures are too good'?
bijschjdbcd says... #2
Honestly, Unban some stuff, Reward people for playing cards that aren't Siege Rhino or Splinter Twin.
As for specifics, Not sure, I stand by my suggestions for a future league we tinker with the banned list and test stuff for ourselves before suggesting it to wizards.
April 16, 2015 8:24 a.m.