The State of Modern and Banning's?
Modern forum
Posted on Nov. 11, 2014, 1:20 p.m. by WovenNebula
These cards have been very influential in Modern, some over a short time and some much much longer, these cards have been contreversial and have been talked about to be given the ban hammer at some point in the game, do these cards really require such an action and what really puts cards in the abyss called Banned?
Other card to mention is Dig Through Time, which is similar to Brainstorm, although personally I think digs is a balanced card, besides it being used in top tier decks to accelerate them to greater heights.
In your opinion below please state why you think a card should and should not be banned. You can not use this deck was tier 1 and now is not as an argument because of any decks using the above cards, since this happens over time throughout modern as a part of evolution of the format, unless it is so "oppressive" in its nature.
Also your thoughts on the "shake up" in modern. Keep in mind that its not good for a format to have the same top decks over the years. They come and go from tier 1 to other tiers but can still be very competitive and come back when a new set is released to aid their conquest.
I have felt this has been a heated topic as of late and some of us may need to vent, but please do so in a civil manner.
WovenNebula says... #3
Please keep in mind the non-modern legal cards are comparison to others in modern.
November 11, 2014 1:25 p.m.
WovenNebula says... #4
@GlistenerAgent I liked your brief answers to the cards listed. As much as I don't want Treasure Cruise to be banned I think it may go that route. Reason being is that I liked delver prior to this and it's nice to see it at tier 1. Just out of curiosity I wonder if the unbanned some other cards to create more decks in the environment and maybe keep cruise in check, but then again chaos may ensue if that were to happen. Lol
November 11, 2014 1:30 p.m.
The only card you listed that may need banning is Treasure Cruise. Personally, I see the card as primarily being played in two decks: burn and delver. Neither of those two decks are overly oppressive in the meta (they're very present in the meta, but have been beaten by a whole host of decks in the last few weeks and failed to place on a number of occasions). A careful eye needs to be cast over the card, where it's played, and whether it's rendering those decks far too much consistency (not in how the deck plays but in how often its placing in the top spot at event after event after event).
November 11, 2014 1:31 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #6
I'd love to see a format where they don't ban TC and unban Bloodbraid Elf ...maybe that's just the sadist in me though
November 11, 2014 1:33 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #7
Speaking of unbannings, I'm looking for Ancestral Vision to be legalized, as the card is very answerable in the format (especially grossly given Remand). Cascade may make that a problem, but there are no really good cascade spells around right now such that drawing 3 is enough to actually play them. No Brainstorm makes that even worse.
November 11, 2014 1:37 p.m.
WovenNebula says... #8
I'd love to see ancestral vision to become unbanned. I'd make a blue/white cascading Geist of saint traft deck.
November 11, 2014 1:49 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #9
Imo there are only two cards that would make Ancestral Vision any good and one isn't modern legal anyway.
Shardless Agent and Ardent Plea.
Neither is ideal but hey.
Now I wonder if Vision was unbanned if it would spawn some kind of control suspend.dec with Jirora, Clockspinning, and Fury Charm supported by counters.
Dunno /shrug
November 11, 2014 1:55 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #10
Control could pretty easily suspend a Vision on turn 1, and have Cryptic Command to protect it on turn 5. Casting removal and counterspells and being able to fill up at that point sounds strong.
November 11, 2014 2:13 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #11
The odd thing (and let's be real here, jeskai in modern isn't control, it's Midrange) there's only really one control deck in modern and that's UTron. (I don't even count my 8rack as control really)
So a third control option in a format where control is nearly dead could be huge.
November 11, 2014 2:27 p.m.
As a control player, I'd love to see Ancestral Vision unbanned. But that's probably not going to happen.
As far as current cards that should be banned, I don't really think any of the ones you mentioned are that egregious. If we're going to ban Treasure Cruise simply because it's a good card that is splashable in many decks, then we need to ban Tarmogoyf for the same reasons.
Bottom line: once everything settles down after the influx of new cards, I think the meta will be very healthy. I like the idea of Delver making a bit of a comeback. It really just adds another deck to the meta.
Probably the biggest loss will be the drop off in Jund, which has been a direct result of the DRS ban. One single ban killed an entire deck. I don't think Wizards wants to make that mistake again so soon.
November 11, 2014 2:31 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #13
Jeskai is a control deck, unless it's playing Geist of Saint Traft or Blade Splicer. The deck tries to win in the very late game, and plays very few creatures. Even though it plays Restoration Angel and Vendilion Clique, those are used as card advantage tools more often than as actual threats.
Scapeshift is also a control deck, while Splinter Twin also functions as combo-control to a somewhat lesser extent.
November 11, 2014 2:31 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #14
I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. Jund didn't die with the banning of Deathrite Shaman. It made the finals of two Grand Prix, and Junk won a Grand Prix. I consider those to be the same deck, especially in this case where we are discussing the impact of Deathrite Shaman.
November 11, 2014 2:33 p.m.
Jund has seen a dramatic drop in play. It's still a decent deck, but nowhere near as powerful as it was. It went from being arguably the strongest t1 deck, to a t1.5 or maybe even t2. It's still capable of good showings, especially with great pilots, but it's not close to the strongest deck in the meta.
And Junk is a completely different deck. Yes, they both used DRS, but they had completely different styles.
November 11, 2014 2:49 p.m.
jund also got Bloodbraid Elf banned, not just deathrite.
November 11, 2014 2:53 p.m.
I actually don't think Treasure Cruise will get banned. Aaron Forsythe said that Treasure Cruise, along with Jeskai Ascendancy, is on the "Watch list" and that there are no changes aside from the planned ones for the Fate Reforged update.
Although I think it'd be interesting if Treasure Cruise became restricted in Modern. As we don't have Restricted cards in Modern, I'd like to see how the decks/meta evolves with Treasure Cruise as a 1-of
November 11, 2014 2:55 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #18
It should be noted that the intention with the jund bannings was to neuter the archetype. It wasn't an accident or a mistake.
November 11, 2014 3 p.m.
kmcree - I also think that Treasure Cruise hurt Jund a bit. Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek are much worse when you can trade in those cards for an early Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time. It also makes Tarmogoyf worse, since I can remove cards from my 'yard to make your 'goyf smaller.
November 11, 2014 3:07 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #20
I still don't think Jund dropped off as as *direct result of the DRS ban. The archetype was still doing reasonably well until the delve spells actually became legal, after which the BGx archetype took a nosedive.
November 11, 2014 3:07 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #21
Jeskai may win in the late game that's true but that's when midrange decks win too. I mean looking at a recent example, Abzan midrange in standard is comparable to jeskai in modern, both decks seek to win late, both decks pack a lot of removal. Efficient threats and removal typify midrange. Control is a completely different beast, packing much more removal and far fewer threats that are more resilient.
Jeskai modern lists tend to follow the midrange trend and not the control trend hence why they are listed on mtgtop8 as in the control section but are labeled mostly "American midrange".
Combo decks are not typical control, most combo decks have many control elements but if the main win condition is a combo it's not really a control deck. U tron, and it's variants, and gifts control may have combos but that's not the go to win like scapeshift (where typically [note I say typically] the scapeshift is the main kill condition)
I'd like to see more balance to the format. Currently it's very aggro/midrange oriented with a smattering of combo. (Pod is actually a midrange deck if you listen to any pros about it.)
I think Vision could help bring balance to the force.
Disclaimer the previous statements are my opinions formed two weeks ago, recently I got Borderlands the Presequel and it's been my time sink. Things might have changed since then.
November 11, 2014 3:09 p.m.
The BG/x archetype has been doing well recently but jund actually has all the tools to battle a meta full of aggression so should rise again if delver / burn / affinity continue to do well. Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm, Anger of the Gods and Drown in Sorrow are all available to the deck.
Junk does well though because Lingering Souls can halt aggression for an extremely long time.
November 11, 2014 3:37 p.m.
Sorry type - the BG/x archetype HASN'T been doing well recently.
November 11, 2014 3:40 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #24
@Ohthenoises The difference is in how the decks are played. Scapeshift and Jeskai are played as control decks, not combo and midrange decks (respectively).
Scapeshift is a control deck with a different win condition, and that's the only difference. If you think of it as a combo deck, it will lead you to playing the deck incorrectly.
Jeskai is focused around gaining card advantage and removing opposing threats. It's goal is to be slower than the Jund decks in order to beat them, making it more controlling than midrange --> it's a control deck.
Jund's certainly got all the tools to fight aggro. What it doesn't have is as stable a card advantage engine as Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time. Both of those cards are most likely better than Bob, making the deck focused on winning through attrition a lot worse at doing so.
November 11, 2014 3:49 p.m.
The reason Treasure Cruise is deserving of a ban is 1: it is being splashed in decks because it can be. This is why wizards banned Deathrite Shaman, because any deck that could run or splash her did. Reason 2: drawing 3 in a single turn is a ridiculous amount of card advantage. The way they draw into them, delver decks can usually cast two in a turn for the minimum cost, and advantage that literally can't be dealt with. Lastly, the card just has too much spectulation floating around it. Wizards I'm sure has taken notice, And will probably do something about it.
November 11, 2014 3:52 p.m.
I'm probably in the minority, but I think Tarmogoyf should be banned. It's overused and really powerful. Delve has hurt it, but the world needs to use different green beat sticks. Jund got pretty fucked over the past year or so, I think Deathrite will get unbanned along with Tarmogoyf getting banned to balance it out. Sort of talking out of my ass but w/e.
November 11, 2014 3:52 p.m.
GoofyFoot - mtgtop8 has shown barely no evidence of decks splashing Tcruise just because they can. It's almost totally confined to burn (which it's perfect for) and delver (which again - it's perfect for).
GlistenerAgent - Debatable whether TC is better than Dark confidant. That is a toughie. I wouldn't call it either way. Both have strong advantages over the other.
November 11, 2014 3:58 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #28
Evidence of the "don't just listen to mtgtop8.com" advice. 4C Cruise is a deck that has had success on MTGO, using a playset of Siege Rhino alongside Treasure Cruise to generate card advantage. The deck plays normal BGx stuff, but splashes Treasure Cruise just because it can. The card is super broken.
November 11, 2014 4:08 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #29
November 11, 2014 4:09 p.m.
I'm with DarkHero here. If you guys are so insistent on banning TCruise, why aren't we talking about banning Goyf? IMO, if you're going to ban one, you have to ban both. They are both cards that are extremely powerful, and have the potential to be splashed in just about any deck. Personally, I don't think either should be banned, but I they should both be in the same boat. I think DRS, for that matter, falls into the same category.
November 11, 2014 4:31 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #31
It's because Tarmogoyf is holding the format together. If Tarmogoyf didn't exist, many midrange and aggressive archetypes are completely invalidated. Green-based decks would no longer have enough powerful cards to compete with the others. Jund would actually be dead, because Tarmogoyf is its best threat, and Zoo decks would get another nail in the coffin, not to mention the actual impossibility of RUG Twin being worthwhile.
Treasure Cruise, on the other hand, is a format-warping bomb that clearly won't be missed. The format was completely fine before it, and it will be fine after it's banned. Deathrite Shaman was in the same boat, making Jund an oppressive deck and being played in pretty much everything. Naya splashed black for its activation, Burn splashed two colors for it, etc.
November 11, 2014 4:38 p.m.
Tarmogoyf certainly is a very good a card but I don't think it's anywhere near banworthy. Espacially with Treasure Cruise in the format wich made the best Tarmogoyf deck GB/X much worse and even without Cruise Jund and its variants weren't oppresive or anything (the version without DRS of course). Also many people complain about Tarmogoyf being played in too many decks. But what decks ecxept Jund, Zoo (wich is only a mariginal part of the meta) and TarmoTwin actually play Tarmogoyf? Also some people say that it's played in every deck with green in wich is definetly not the case. Also people complain about Tarmogoyf being played in Affinity. Guys that was one brewer at one tournament. I haven't seen it anywhere else since then. Do complaining about Tarmogoyf in Affinity is like saying that Krark-Clan Ironworks is oppresive because Conley Woods played a deck with it at one GP.
Birthing Pod and Splinter Twin aren't overpowered ore oppresive and therefore shouldn't be banned.
I'm not sure if Treasure Cruise should be banned. It's defintely at the upper rim of power level for Modern but I actually don't think it's conpletely busted.
Cards I think that should be unbanned:
Ancestral Vision: nobody is going to play that cards unless they ban both Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time.
Golgari Grave-Troll and Dread Return: there's simply no need for these cards to be banned. Even if they were legal a modern Dredge deck would miss a recurring threat like Ichorid or Nether Shadow and enough playable looting effects to function.
November 11, 2014 4:40 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #33
magicnerd0815 actually brings up a solid point about the dredge cards. I think those are worthy of unbanning as well, as practically every graveyard hate that is legal in Legacy and Vintage is also legal in Modern. My only worry is that people will have to commit a certain number of slots to hating out that deck, similar to Affinity. That alone may stop WotC from unbanning Grave-Troll and Dread Return.
November 11, 2014 4:44 p.m.
quesobueno123 says... #34
I mean i'm cruisin in burn, which probably means it should be banned, as burn is playing blue.
November 11, 2014 4:45 p.m.
GlistenerAgent - be a bit careful of bringing up decks that did well like one time (referring to the siege rhino deck).
quesobueno123 - but it works in burn. Its like burns favourite card. Thats not an abusive relationship.
November 11, 2014 4:49 p.m.
quesobueno123 says... #36
ChiefBell Ya, I don't wanna go back to Grim Lavamancer I was to good for her, (and traded the ones I was running.)
November 11, 2014 4:52 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #37
@ChiefBell Fair enough. However, there is a RUG deck playing Treasure Cruise (spawned by the card's existence), a 4C deck playing Treasure Cruise, etc.
According to mtgtop8.com, Cruise is the fifth most played card in the format (about 32% of decks), and averages 3.9 copies per deck it's played in. The top four cards (Serum Visions, Lightning Bolt, Steam Vents and Scalding Tarn) are all played in UR Delver, and are not bannable. I don't think that the percentage on Cruise says anything less than "ban me". I know it's a statistic that may be incorrect, but it's still very revealing.
November 11, 2014 4:56 p.m.
@ChiefBell, correct me if I'm wrong, but we also haven't had a major modern event since Treasure Cruise came out. I think this weekend in spain (it is spain right?) is probably going to be very enlightening, for either side of the argument.
Tarmogoyf doesn't deserve a ban, I think GlistenerAgent put it best a few comments above me.
personally, I completely agree Golgari Grave-Troll should be unbanned. At least an attempt to try him in the format would be nice, because i honestly don't see dredge happening at all. Dread Return however, I feel is simply way too powerful for the deck, and any deck for that matter.
November 11, 2014 5:09 p.m.
Big modern event in Milan on 10/3/14. UR delver came 5th out of 8 tied with 3 others. Meta looked ok. UR delver was running cruise. We've had a few small opens too, with about 200 players.
November 11, 2014 5:11 p.m.
Are we ACTUALLY talking about unbanning Golgari Grave-Troll? I'll say this, if you unban Golgari Grave-Troll, you better ban Treasure Cruise, because it's not too far fetched to have a T2 Treasure Cruise with Golgari Grave-Troll in the deck. At least in U/R Delver they have to have a VERY good draw to T2 a Cruise. And oftentimes in the deck you aren't Cruising until Turn 4 or 5 when you run out of gas.
November 11, 2014 5:14 p.m.
GlistenerAgent: I understand what you're saying about Cruise being played so heavily. But remember, it's still a brand new card. Everyone wants to play it. It also opened up the possibility of an old and previously uncompetitive deck (Delver), so people who love Delver are clamoring to play Cruise. But give it a few months. The Meta will adjust, people will come up with sideboard tech to handle Cruise, and it will become less prevalent. It's just too early to call for a ban at this point in time.
I'd love to see Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned. But I think unbanning Dread Return with it would be too much.
November 11, 2014 5:20 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #42
How early you cast the Cruise isn't particularly relevant. You're still drawing three cards. Either way, Dredge wouldn't even play the card.
Sultai Charm was a new card that people wanted to play. I can't find the lists right now, but some players tried BUG just to see if the card was good. It's been long enough that all the bad cards have been weeded out, and Treasure Cruise is still a four-of. It's not just a new card that is piquing interest, it is a mainstay, an oppressive one at that.
November 11, 2014 5:24 p.m.
GlistenerAgent - You would play Treasure Cruise if you got to Dredge away 3 Golgari Grave-Troll for each draw. I'm not saying that Treasure Cruise would go into Dredge, but I could see a new deck with Treasure Cruise and Golgari Grave-Troll as an engine. And by your logic Jace's Ingenuity is too strong for Modern b/c you're drawing 3 cards. The reason why Treasure Cruise is powerful is because how early you can cast it and draw 3. I disagree that TCruise is too strong for Modern, but don't say things that clearly aren't true.
November 11, 2014 5:30 p.m.
There's a huge difference between a card like Cruise and something like Sultai Charm. Charm just isn't that great. It's not worth a spot. Cruise is an awesome card that deserves spots in a lot of decks. But it's being overplayed right now, because the Meta hasn't adjusted to it quite yet.
If you go back to the DRS ban, at that point in time, almost everybody was running graveyard hate of some kind in the SB. Once DRS was banned, that hate was removed in favor of other more relevant cards. Now that Cruise is out, many decks will eventually bring that graveyard hate back, and eventually Cruise will only be played in a handful of decks like Burn and Delver. You aren't giving the Meta a chance to adjust and correct itself.
These things don't happen overnight. They take time. But if you have a knee jerk reaction and auto ban Cruise immediately, you're relegating decks like Delver back to mediocrity, which isn't good for the Meta either.
November 11, 2014 5:32 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #45
You are misunderstanding what I said. Treasure Cruise is powerful because it can be cast for one mana. You can cast it early, but casting it later and still having the mana to protect it is why it's played and Ingenuity is not.
Golgari Grave-Troll wouldn't be good enough just to enable a Cruise engine IMO. I will restate that decks that play the Troll will not play Treasure Cruise.
November 11, 2014 5:33 p.m.
WovenNebula says... #46
I agree that if grave-troll comes back then we would have to worry about the blue delve way too much. If they did dread return, then they would need to do deathrite shaman.
November 11, 2014 5:34 p.m.
TheWanderer123 says... #47
I personally would enjoy a Deathrite Shaman unbanning, as I had so much fun myself playing with him. I know that he can be hard to deal with and force you to make tougher decisions, but I would enjoy it so much if Deathrite Shaman was unbanned.
November 11, 2014 5:34 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #48
My point exactly. You were saying that Cruise is a new card that people want to play, and that's why it's seeing a great deal of play. It's played because it's good, not because it's something to try out.
We've had a little less than two months to adjust, which is plenty of time for changes to take place. The changes that are happening are to combat Delver and Burn, not the card Treasure Cruise. Graveyard hate isn't worth the sideboard slots just to beat that card, because you'd rather be answering the decks it's being played in. Modern sideboarding needs to be much more powerful.
November 11, 2014 5:35 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #49
I apologize for the ambiguity, post #4 was a response to JWiley129.
I don't think DRS does much against Dredge/Cruise, because one card a turn probably won't cut it. Relic of Progenitus and Scavenging Ooze do a much better job.
November 11, 2014 5:37 p.m.
"How early you cast the Cruise isn't particularly relevant. You're still drawing three cards. "
"...the effect is much too powerful for Modern." - GlistenerAgent
Neither of those comments talk about the mana spent to cast Treasure Cruise. Both of them, however, CAN be used to also describe Ancestral Vision. A card you volleyed to be unbanned. How can you simultaneously ask to ban Treasure Cruise and unban Ancestral Vision? And this even applies to your argument that Cruise is good b/c you can leave up mana to protect it, which is a statement you made about unbanning Ancestral Vision. I'll just ask that you be consistent with your arguments than being almost militant about banning Treasure Cruise.
GlistenerAgent says... #2
Tarmogoyf is not getting banned. It's very powerful, but it's being kept in check by combo decks.
Treasure Cruise will be banned as soon as possible. It's warping the format, and the effect is much too powerful for Modern. It's very hard to properly answer the card.
Birthing Pod is not being banned. The deck is the sort of deck people want to see do well, as it has an interesting game plan and the games play out very differently and require a lot of play to be good. The card is very powerful, but again is kept in check by the available answers.
Splinter Twin is not being played enough to come close to ban consideration. The deck is fine, but not too good.
Dig Through Time won't be banned, at least not yet. The effect is strong, but the fact that it can't really be splashed and fits into fewer decks as a result makes it worth keeping legal.
November 11, 2014 1:24 p.m.