The State of Modern and Banning's?
Modern forum
Posted on Nov. 11, 2014, 1:20 p.m. by WovenNebula
These cards have been very influential in Modern, some over a short time and some much much longer, these cards have been contreversial and have been talked about to be given the ban hammer at some point in the game, do these cards really require such an action and what really puts cards in the abyss called Banned?
Other card to mention is Dig Through Time, which is similar to Brainstorm, although personally I think digs is a balanced card, besides it being used in top tier decks to accelerate them to greater heights.
In your opinion below please state why you think a card should and should not be banned. You can not use this deck was tier 1 and now is not as an argument because of any decks using the above cards, since this happens over time throughout modern as a part of evolution of the format, unless it is so "oppressive" in its nature.
Also your thoughts on the "shake up" in modern. Keep in mind that its not good for a format to have the same top decks over the years. They come and go from tier 1 to other tiers but can still be very competitive and come back when a new set is released to aid their conquest.
I have felt this has been a heated topic as of late and some of us may need to vent, but please do so in a civil manner.
ChiefBell - Reminds me of other threads where instead of Treasure Cruise it's Tarmogoyf (also for financial restrictions) and/or Birthing Pod, etc. Notice that no one is asking for Arcbound Ravager to be banned, or Lightning Bolt, or Scapeshift. Each of those are "staples" of the format and influence deck construction to a high degree. Why can't all those exist in the same meta as Treasure Cruise?
November 12, 2014 3:17 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #3
I'm in ChiefBell's camp here, people are all up in arms about cruise. Last month people were all up in arms about Pod, the month before that it was DRS, the month before that is was Bloodbraid Elf.
People just need to complain about something or other. How I see it? Cruise isn't that bad.
November 12, 2014 3:17 p.m.
oh.... also on the 4th point of DRS's reasons for banning... "(damage, mana, life gain and Graveyard hate)
gy hate is very relevant for it as it meant main board slot that would normal need to be sided in for.
November 12, 2014 3:19 p.m.
I would still urge everyone to be vigilant and watch the meta though. Having one burn deck and one delver deck in every top 8 isn't offensive. But if we start seeing blue splashes in everything or a situation where the majority of top 8s have multiple delver or burn decks then obviously there is a problem.
November 12, 2014 3:22 p.m.
I can agree with that.
I mainly play 
Tokens, and even I've considered how nice it would be to draw 3 cards after T4-5.
Since everything that makes tokens ends up in the grave there's nearly no change of not getting it for 1-2 CMC.
And since I already use Flooded Strand for additional fetching and thinning, changing 2x Plains into 2x Hallowed Fountain wouldn't hurt at all.
I just wouldn't know what to take out.
November 12, 2014 3:36 p.m.
Yeh. See this is somewhat problematic thinking haha.
November 12, 2014 3:38 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #8
I should run it in 8rack! Pairs well with Liliana of the Veil!
November 12, 2014 3:40 p.m.
It should run in pod... every creature you sac is 1 CMC less you would need to cast it!
It should run in Scapeshift, because if they live through the Scapeshift you've just filled your graveyard.
It should run in splinter twin... every control spell is 1 less CMC... and the dig is great for combo. (I'm only partially kidding on this one... I expect to see it tried, though I think Dig Through Time is better for it because of Instant speed.)
November 12, 2014 3:47 p.m.
It actually could work in 8rack. Because you're playing like Raven's Crime, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek and Liliana. Borderline though because you do have 3 drops in there, and also cards that dont get thrown away like you know..... The Rack haha
November 12, 2014 3:48 p.m.
I know you were but it made me actually think about it.
November 12, 2014 4:02 p.m.
The best thing we can do is give it time and not jump the ban gun. I think ChiefBell made great points. Also, take a look at the meta on goldfish today. It looks pretty solid.
November 12, 2014 4:24 p.m.
WovenNebula says... #15
One website that has been notorious on hyping up the ban on TC is Channelfireball, they have put out so many articles on banning it and then whenever the briefly mention the card in any article they put (this should be banned). Not sure why they have it out for the card but they do go out of their way to say it ALOT. Adds to the hype I guess...
November 12, 2014 4:30 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #16
A financial standpoint is that it's a common from a recent set. It's harder to bump the price up to where Serum Visions and Lightning Bolt are.
November 12, 2014 4:43 p.m.
@ChiefBell, I'm entitled to my opinion, don't be such a douche man. We'll see what gets banned and what doesn't in a few months.
November 12, 2014 4:45 p.m.
vishnarg - I don't think ChiefBell is being douche-ish. You claimed that Delver was a significant portion of the meta and he showed you data that suggested otherwise. You can still have your opinion, but just know it's a wrong one. And yes, there can be wrong opinions.
November 12, 2014 4:49 p.m.
quesobueno123 says... #20
I do not think that it should be banned, but that is influenced by how much I love the card in my burn deck.
November 12, 2014 4:50 p.m.
@JWiley129 I didn't say that Delver was the only archetype that TC is being abused in. Delver is a hot deck, but Red Deck Wins is probably the best deck in modern at the moment, and many lists are adopting 2-4 copies of TC. I think that trend will continue until it gets a ban consideration. But that's an opinion. You can't just state that my opinion is wrong because you interpreted what I said incorrectly.
November 12, 2014 4:54 p.m.
WovenNebula says... #22
Really funny Article on banning, including Treasure Cruise
I recommend anyone who has time to check it out, it's that hilarious.
November 12, 2014 4:57 p.m.
That actually did make me chuckle, thank you for that
November 12, 2014 5:04 p.m.
WovenNebula says... #24
I thought we needed a laugh to break up the mood and came across that by accident.
November 12, 2014 5:11 p.m.
You know... After reading through all (at the time) seven pages of this, the only things I took away are wanting to splash blue in my 8rack deck and make an Esper tokens deck. Hey Rayenous, care to post your tokens list? I betya i can find room for a TC or 4. Also, blue gives you Favorable Winds, which is a strict upgrade over Honor of the Pure if you running Bitterblossom. Ooh! Also a couple Geist of Saint Traft cuz the token gets the buffs. Must...brew...
November 12, 2014 11:19 p.m.
I hope that cruise gets banned simply because I'm sick of playing against nothing but U/R delver and RDW with blue splashed for it. Don't care if the decks can be beat, don't care if they aren't oppressive, don't care if sideboard cards exists. Playing against those 2 decks as a Cruel Control players is such a pain because of all the damage I have to deal to myself because of my mana base. It's honestly something around 60% of my matches are against those 2 decks. I should just wait until the popularity dies down before coming back to the format. I can only imagine how much it sucks to be a G/B/x player atm.
November 13, 2014 9:26 a.m.
It's pretty good being a GB/x player.......
Volcanic Fallout, Anger of the Gods, Drown in Sorrow, Abrupt Decay, Kitchen Finks, Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix, and Obstinate Baloth give you an easy time. You have uncounterable killspells, board clear and fantastic lifegain. I lose games against delver and burn sometimes but I rarely lose matches (as in the best of 3). A lot of GB decks have begun to bring in more life gain just for this meta. It works. Once you get something stuck the board they have a difficult time removing it. If that thing is gaining you a life a turn then you can quickly stabilise.
Delver and burn are absolutely massive in my meta (I think because they're affordable decks) and I play them regularly. The thing I quickly realised about delver is that because the deck is mainly cantrips it has a lower proportion of actual threats that need answering. Furthermore, the newer decks have been scrimping on counterspells for more cantrips. Overall thus means that every abrupt decay goes a very long way. I really, honestly enjoy playing delver.
November 13, 2014 10:42 a.m.
So GP Madrid just wrapped up. Only 4 copies of Treasure Cruise in the top 8. Overall the meta was very diverse! Exciting time for modern as the meta looks really interesting right now.
November 16, 2014 1:56 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #29
Those four copies won, however. I am certainly surprised more Delver didn't make Top 8, but you can tell from decks maindecking Pyroclasm that the metagame is adjusting. I may have to change my mind. :)
November 16, 2014 1:58 p.m.
Yeh things look good. Jund could start doing well too.
November 16, 2014 2:18 p.m.
Hey guys. Hey guys. Jeskai ascendancy combo is so broken. Amirite?
November 16, 2014 2:23 p.m.
The Ascendancy deck is just another combo deck, nothing particularly broken. TC in Delver decks are what really shocked the meta-game
November 16, 2014 2:39 p.m.
You must have missed the memo about there being only 4 copies of TC in the top8......
November 16, 2014 2:45 p.m.
vishnarg, we are discussing how the meta-game is healthy and operating well currently. Did you not see GP Madrid? Delver was strong, but no stronger than the other decks played; the finals were very close and Delver just came out on top. The top 8 was pretty diverse despite the multiple Birthing Pod decks.
November 16, 2014 3:54 p.m.
I know, but remember how much differently the meta game ran when Nacatl came in and Delver left? New decks emerged and people ran different spells to try to handle emerging power decks, like Zoo. TC had that effect on the meta. It's not broken and doesn't need a ban, but it has changed modern, and decks are running more cards to try and stop Delver and Burn decks because of it.
November 16, 2014 4:05 p.m.
I'm very happy to see the meta adjusting and starting to correct itself. Should be a fun few months ahead.
November 16, 2014 4:53 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #38
While everyone has adjusted to the power of Treasure Cruise, it's still pretty much a 'play it, or play against it'. When a card is being splashed for in basically every deck, I see that as a problem. Lightning Bolt is not being splashed for in every deck, but Cruise is, because Cruise can fix the problem in almost every deck. 8-Rack couldn't beat Cruise, so a lot of people played Cruise. RDW burned out pretty easily, so they splashed for Cruise, and decided they'd be greedy and play 5 colours. 5c burn shouldn't be a thing. At least play Tribal Flames.
If Cruise was banned, and we only had Dig Through Time, decks wouldn't splash it, but things like Delver and BUG would still be just as powerful.
November 16, 2014 6:18 p.m.
Three decks, only 2 of them tier one, is not every deck lol. We saw very little splashing for cruise at the GP.... I don't really understand why you think every deck is playing it when 2 or 3 archetypes are out of many.
November 16, 2014 6:30 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #40
I don't understand how Treasure Cruise is so hard to respond to. Does nobody run counterspells? Or discard? Or some way of exiling people's graveyards?
November 16, 2014 7:28 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #41
ThisIsBullshit The only way to actually stop Cruise is with counter magic. I'm not going to bring in Rest in Peace when the only card it stops is Cruise, because that's a waste of a card slot. RIP is good against nothing else in the deck, like actual threats.
The thing that makes Cruise amazing is that if it's not countered, you get 3 cards. No way to stop it if it resolves. Discard is not great against it, because if they draw another Cruise, it's just cheaper.
wnorris17 Obviously, I was exaggerating, but the thing is that every deck COULD splash for Cruise, with legitimate reasoning for doing so. It can't be classed as wrong, unless the deck focuses entirely against that strategy. "Three decks, only 2 of them tier one": Delver obviously is running it, but the other 2 decks shouldn't be required to have it. It's just there because the pilot is being greedy and wants to draw cards.
Like I said, 4c and 5c burn shouldn't be a thing. Not because they're bad, or I have anything against them, but that sort of monstrosity just shouldn't have to exist.
November 17, 2014 2:56 a.m.
Look. The GP has happened. Cruise wasn't that prevalent. Delver wasn't that prevalent in the top 8 or the top 16. The argument is null and void.
At some point you have to abandon your theory and arguments and look at what's actually physically happening in the competitive world. The response you get from looking at the latest very large samples (like the recent GP) is that the meta is looking quite diverse and healthy. We see scapeshift, junk, pod, delver, twin, and more in the top 16. In fact the deck that makes up the largest proportion is pod - a deck that can't even answer or respond to treasure cruise. Adding a delver deck into every top 8 actually isn't a bad thing. Its one more deck in there.
We should really stop arguing about how bad things could possibly be when we have evidence to suggest that our worst fears aren't coming true!
Rayenous says... #1
TC is not on par with why GRS got banned...
It may be on par with why you feel DRS got banned...
but when DRS got banned, Wizards stated why.
- It was as good on T10 as it was on T1. (It would never be an undesired draw).
- Due to it's hybrid mana it was too easily splash able in decks that might not otherwise play it.
- Was not detrimental to any deck that may splash it.
- It had too many utility options for a 1-drop. (damage, mana and life gain)
In comparison, TC:
- Is not good on T1 or 2, and rarely 3.
- Is 'less' splash able than it could be. (It's only seeing play in 2 deck types)
- Is detrimental when it's a wasted draw due to there being no cards in your gy.
- Does only 1 thing... gives a 1-time card advantage.
November 12, 2014 3:16 p.m.