Twiddle Storm > UR Storm ??
Modern forum
Posted on Aug. 8, 2020, 11:53 p.m. by Lowenstein
I recently built Twiddle Storm, and I have done quite well with it. I know lots of people kind of view it as a meme deck, but I am now legitimately wondering if it is better than UR Storm? Here's why: UR Storm needs its creatures, the Twiddle version doesn't run any. Also, I think UR relies a little more heavily on the graveyard. Twiddle also wins faster on average I believe. So yeah, honestly asking, would Twiddle Storm not just be better? Why or why not?
Here is my build if you want to see an example: Twiddle Storm URG (not advertising the deck, just being helpful if you need a reference)
Daveslab2022 says... #3
Is your deck super interesting and fun? Sure, absolutely.
Is it better than a deck that’s been honed for literal decades? Absolutely not. No offense, but just... No.
I’m not saying your deck is bad at all, it’s just not at all on the same level as a deck that has been constantly switching between tier 1 and 2 for years, with it currently being T1.
You do make some interesting points, but you seem to be relying on Lotus Field to win, just as much as Gifts Storm relies on its creatures. That just sets you up for bad draws and tough top decks.
August 9, 2020 11:24 a.m. Edited.
Lowenstein says... #4
Daveslab2022 just because a deck has been good for decades doesn't mean a newer can't be better. I'm not favoring one over the other, just trying to see the legitimate reasons. For what you said, an old deck isn't better than a new deck just because it's old. Not saying you are necessarily wrong, just that that reason isn't very valid.
Also Lotus Field has hexproof and Gift's creatures don't. Additionally, there is lots of mainboard creature hate and not a lot of potential Lotus Field hate in other decks. Thoughts? Why would Twiddle Storm have bad draws and top decks, or at least significantly worse than those of Gifts Storm?
Flooremoji I like your point about the resistance to mid-combo counters. Getting Ideas Unbound countered does have potential to cripple everything, but it also may just delay the combo one more turn like with Gifts Storm, as there are often dead cards to be discarded. How do you think the possible increased vulnerability to counterspells compares with the reliance on creatures of Gifts Storm?
Hope this is a fun conversation haha.
August 9, 2020 11:49 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #5
It has worse draws because it has less redundant cards, no set up cards, and needs also needs a very specific set of cards to win.
I’m not saying that because a deck is older it’s better. I’m saying because it’s been around so long, has been viable for so long, and has been honed very specifically for so long, by very very good players, is why it’s better than your first build of this other deck.
August 9, 2020 11:55 a.m.
Lowenstein says... #6
Daveslab2022, very true about Gifts being good and consistent for a long time, but that can’t be a singular reason for something else to not be better.
Do have some comparative examples about card draws with the two decks? Because with Twiddle Storm, depending on what’s needed, most of the draws can be decent.
August 9, 2020 12:12 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #7
Well Gifts Storm has 12 redundant mana spells, 12 redundant cantrips, 8 redundant creatures, and then 3-4 Gifts which is literally +3/4 to all of these, so 15 mana, 15 cantrips and 11 creatures. That’s basically 1/4 of your deck for each category.
I’m not familiar with your deck at all, I’ll be honest, just took a cursory glance. Take that as you will, so I Cant compare the two as you asked
August 9, 2020 12:36 p.m. Edited.
psionictemplar says... #8
I would like to add that gifts storm has a possible turn 2 win as well. To my knowledge (which isnt much) twiddle storm is a couple turns slower.
August 9, 2020 1:35 p.m.
Lowenstein says... #9
Daveslab2022 cool, thanks for your input!
psionictemplar, true, i think the T2 win isn’t very likely though. And yeah when Twiddle Storm combos it is on average T3, though there is no T2 win.
If you guys want you can check out my build posted up above to get a better idea of the deck. Sometime I will make its description better and more detailed.
August 9, 2020 1:56 p.m.
Flooremoji says... #10
Well, another point is storm dosen't need a manabear to win. They can also fairly cast their rituals and a couple cantrips then Grapeshot-Remand-Grapeshot. It's harder to be sure, but it does mean that storm doesn't need the creatures around to win.
Being more vulnerable mid combo probably weakens T-storms control matchup, and it probably hurts more when Ponza destroys a land that could be sacrificed to Lotus Field. Damping Sphere forces you to deal with it before you can play Lotus Field, and Surgical Extraction/Lost Legacy are much better against this deck (you don't even nesecarily have to get Lotus Field, they rely pretty heavily on Psychic Puppetry).
psionictemplar: Yep! G-storm has a potential turn two win. It's pretty much Land, Land, Ritual, Manamorphose, Mana Bear, more rituals, Manamorphose, Gifts storm. It's pretty unlikley :) T-storm combos as early turn three (Land, Land, Tap both for flaoting mana, Lotus Field twiddle Lotus Field etc.) They for most intents and purposes have the same speed.
August 9, 2020 1:57 p.m.
Lowenstein says... #11
Flooremoji good stuff. Psychic Puppetry is indeed very essential for Twiddle Storm.
Dealing with Damping Sphere before playing Lotus Field is true. Recently though I had a game against Eldrazi Tron where I had to get rid of Chalice of the Void and Relic of Progenitus on the same turn before really comboing off, but i did get it. So yeah that would be more tricky, it would probably just add an extra turn.
August 9, 2020 2:11 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #12
Just looking into getting back into Modern after years of not playing much at all. Love all flavors of Storm, including Gifts and Twiddle. Have been tweaking and goldfishing Twiddle, after building a much jankier version years ago, before Lotus Field showed up. The deck looks good, and fast,and consistent - and it can be very difficult to interact with.
I think it has the potential to be better than Gifts Storm, but there's no consensus on the best list yet, and I think some issues need to be worked out before anyone knows whether the build is really potentially better than Gifts. I think most lists are currently too likely to lose Game 1s to a counter and have no answer, where Gifts is likely to pack 2-3 Remand mainboard. I also reckon there isn't a lot of room for sideboarding in the deck for games 2 and 3. Have thought about running the build with the same mana engine plus Gifts and Merchant Scroll in place of some cantrips - not sure how much better or worse that may be yet. Will make my list public later today, would love to hear your thoughts on it, and discuss a few unconventional choices in my version.
TL;DR Not ready to say whether or not Twiddle>Gifts.
August 23, 2020 2:37 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #13
After screwing around a little, here's what I ended up with as a start, happy to get feedback: Dig for Fire 2.0 (Twiddle Storm)
I like Tolaria West over Sylvan Scrying for starters, though it's slower, because it's more consistent (harder to counter and easier to fit 3-of). It also helps fit a solid counter into the maindeck, Pact of Negation, because it can tutor for it easily once you get going. I think that's probably good enough protection for game 1, where you're likely to go off T3. Plus, the deck is good enough at making mana that you can easily use Pact when you aren't ready to go off if you need it to survive to T4 or something. Still haven't totally figured out how I want to sideboard, but I'm curious why Empty the Warrens doesn't seem favored here. I've seen lists with alternate wincons from Madcap Experiment and Platinum Emperion to Polymorph and Progenitus to the Kiki combo. I do like the ideas behind both Aria of Flame and Thing in the Ice Flip. Not sure I would want sets of both in the sideboard though (which I've seen in some people's lists).
My ultimate take after a couple days looking at it is that this deck can be very good if it can consistently produce a counterspell on time, and deal with Blood Moon and Damping Sphere relatively smoothly. I don't think it's there yet, may need an extra an Merchant Scroll or an extra bounce spell maindeck, or just more basic Islands to consistently do the latter. Again, I really think mainboard Remand is primarily what makes UR Gifts Storm stronger in the current field, but I'm just coming back from not playing for a while, so I could be way off base.
August 24, 2020 6:34 p.m.
bloodlessdread says... #14
This deck is just dead in the water to ghost quarters and blood moon 2 heavily played modern staples. Meanwhile gifts storm is a toolkit deck that can bord decent answers to most match ups
April 4, 2021 2:37 p.m.
Lowenstein says... #15
bloodlessdread yeah no one is really playing twiddle storm rn, I also am playing different things now. However, Ghost Quarter does nothing against Lotus Field . Blood Moon is definitely the biggest hitter, but can be dealt with.
Flooremoji says... #2
Now, I can't say which is better, but here are some points.
With Gifts storm, resolving Gifts Ungiven with a manabear is basiclly GG. You won't fizzle. If you draw bad with Twiddle storm, you can go from winning to losing in the blink of an eye. This also gives G-storm a lucky topdeck that I'm not sure T-storm has.
Countering a crucial spell mid-combo can cripple T-storm if it cast Ideas Unbound while gifts can keep their hand.
People leave in removal for G-storm, which cramps their deck space furthur rather than just sideing in storm hate taking out creatures.
Probably missing some points but Twiddle storm is a cool deck! Glad more people are playing it :)
August 9, 2020 4:02 a.m.