Unban Dark Depths!
Modern forum
Posted on Nov. 18, 2020, 7:49 p.m. by lorthosthetidebaker
Considering the current modern meta's obsession with lands, I realized I do not see any reason for Dark Depths to be banned. Interaction in modern is on a steady decline and a turn 3-4 win seems more merciful than punishing. What arguments exist against unbanning depths? I ported turbo depths to modern as a thought experiment which can be found here: what if modern had depths?
lorthosthetidebaker says... #3
It is difficult to interact with but I don't think its unreasonable. Every color aside from green offers a mainboard-able (though some maybe sideboard only) solution to the token and there is likely one for green I haven't found. Examples include Path to Exile, Blood Moon, Vapor Snag, and Diabolic Edict. The combo is also subject to increased variance due to the reduced access to fast mana.
November 18, 2020 9:03 p.m.
I agree with path. But moon can only be played in certain decks and vapor snag is card disadvantage and is by no means main board worthy
November 18, 2020 9:05 p.m.
Also the deck can go off before blood moon hits the table
November 18, 2020 9:06 p.m.
wallisface says... #6
Yeah i think its a card that will only further push the format in the direction where fair decks can’t compete. There are very few viable modern cards that can interact with it (note i say “viable” - Vapor Snag is not a viable modern card).
Adding it to modern will likely push out other combo decks that aren’t as fast, as well as other decks that just can’t compete with it - most notably a bunch of fairer decks. It also doesn’t add much constructive to the format, just one more combo deck, thats super hard (comparably) to disrupt. Modern would become a worse environment, not a better one.
I don’t think it should be in modern at all.
November 18, 2020 9:32 p.m.
lorthosthetidebaker says... #7
It seems to me that the consistency and options available to fair decks make them the best competition for a deck like Depths. It certainly isn't any faster than Neoform+Griselbrand and, from testing, would be on par with the faster storm/other combo draws. Depths may have slightly better odds than those decks but, notably, such fast combo decks have been pushed out of the greater modern meta.
In regard to the mana cost of Blood Moon, there is also Alpine Moon.
Perhaps the current pool of modern answers is lacking for responding to a 20/20 indestructible flyer but the issue of lacking modern answers is pervasive. I suppose Vapor Snag has over-performed through my history in modern but I don't discount the possibility that an answer exists in blue which I haven't considered. Having applications against Batterskull and older Primeval Titan builds does make it seem at least formerly functional.
November 18, 2020 10:11 p.m.
GenericToaster says... #8
I do think Dark Depths may actually be reasonable to introduce in to modern. Specifically, because key tutors like Crop Rotation and Gamble wouldn't be in modern with it. My biggest concern would probably be Expedition Map. I'm not sure that those two cards coexisting in modern would be TOO bad, but there would be a LOT of angry tron players if Dark Depths snuck in to modern and expedition map later paid the price for it
November 19, 2020 12:18 a.m.
Given Simian Spirit Guide exists and for games 2 & 3 if they’re on the draw they can board in Gemstone Caverns, it’s possible they can run any 1-mana haste effect such as Maximize Velocity, Reckless Charge or Thud for a turn 2 win. Speaking of extra mana, you could play a turn 1 Springleaf Drum tap your Vampire Hexmage to it before sacrificing it and that also would provide you with the extra mana to play a haste effect on turn 2. Let’s not also forget, if the Vampire Hexmage is removed by discard or counter effect the deck can run Claim / Fame for a lethal comeback. With a turn 1 Caverns you can also fit Adventurous Impulse, Oath of Nissa and/or Ancient Stirrings to dig if needed. Keep in mind on your first turn with the Caverns you can play your second land allowing you to also play a turn 1 Sylvan Scrying which can further improve the combo’s consistency. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth isn’t also necessary as you can play a turn 1 Golgari land into an Elves of Deep Shadow, Birds of Paradise or Gilded Goose which would give the combo better protection against edict effects if your opponent doesn’t have turn 1 removal.
These are things that should be considered regarding this card getting unbanned.
November 19, 2020 10:38 a.m.
Oh and I suppose there may be some merit considering if Grim Discovery or Mox Opal could provide any value in terms of recovery and extra mana off of the 20/20 legendary creature.
November 19, 2020 10:45 a.m.
Flooremoji says... #12
It is my personal feelings that whilie an awesome card, depths can be slotted into enough decks already doing good enough without being able to make a 20/20 Indestructible creature.
Something I haven't seen mentioned is that one piece is not a land, but both are with Thespian's Stage. This is increddibly difficult to deal with outside of answering Marit Lage, but they can just loam back both pieces until your opponent runs out of answers, esp brutal with Dryad of the Ilysian Grove (which also conincedentally lets depths tap for mana). In land based whenever you play something like Primeval Titan, Hour of Promise etc. you just find both pieces.
Then there are also dedicated depths shells, and even if you Blood Moon thanks to a rules change iirc depths now enters with 0 counters, so the next Naturalize becomes an instant speed 20/20.
I'm not sure weather it would be a 'broken' deck, but I think that the decks that would gain the most don't need anything more to help them right now.
November 19, 2020 1:43 p.m.
xtechnetia says... #13
As someone who has played against Legacy Depths decks, I can tell you upfront that Depths is a bad idea to introduce into Modern.
The power of Depths isn't really the raw kill speed (although turn 2-3 kills are certainly possible, even in Modern with a good enough draw), but its resiliency to a lot of conventional interaction. Permission and discard effects, which are good against most combo decks, are no guarantee of safety vs Depths because the combo can be naturally assembled via lands only (Stage), and outside of Path to Exile, interacting with Marit Lage herself is really difficult. Plus even if you do have working removal, Depths decks traditionally run maindeck discard effects to clear the way, and some pack protection like Not of This World.
And this is just dedicated Depths combo; the card itself can be slotted into other decks for what is often a nice boost in power and an extra win condition in case you deal with their other ones or they just have you in a corner (see Legacy Lands, Maverick as examples).
Modern has had a long history of struggling to answer powerful lands. Tron is consistently a respectable deck and that's a nerfed version of what a Cloudpost-based deck would look like. Primetime decks with Valakut and (more recently) Field continue to put up results. Eye of Ugin was the backbone of arguably the best Modern deck ever seen in the format's history.
Introducing Depths into Modern will not make the format pack more interaction; it will put huge pressure on slower interactive decks like Jund, and encourage linear aggro decks that pray to outrace the 20/20 avatar.
November 19, 2020 2:55 p.m.
Back when Extended was a competitive format Dark Depths got added to a deck called ROFLThopter. It was a control shell built Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek and it dominated the Extended format in 2010.
Then, people added Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage and it just became totally oppressive. Adding in Thespian's Stage and any other goodies in the current Modern card pool and I am guessing it would dominate events again.
Only needing lands and/or 2 total mana in play to win makes an extremely fast clock to race against. Combine it with disruption and counterspells and you have a very strong package that is very hard to stop.
But there is a lot of fast aggro in the current Modern environment so you never know.
Here is a little wiki i found talking about them briefly: ROFLThopter & Thopter Depths
shadow63 says... #2
I think the issue is that the combo is really hard to interact with one of the two cards is a lan. So basically you either need to counter or kill hexmage when its played or it's pretty much GG
November 18, 2020 8:56 p.m.