Unban the Banned?
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 19, 2013, 3:49 p.m. by Three-Left-Feet
Now, if you could bring back any card to Modern that you feel isn't Too Broken, what would it be, and why?
Dread Return ? (Okay, this one is pretty broken if Bridge from Below is still in Modern..)
And to go even further; What cards do you think should be banned from Modern?
My thoughts on this is that cards should not get banned. Here's my method of thinking: If WotC created a card, they saw a need for the card in the game. If it turns out that the card is "broken", then part of the game, in my opinion, is to find ways around that card. Figure out how to beat it and make it less relevent. This brings up the idea that you will build entire decks meant tos top one single card, but the fact is that there are single cards out there that beat single cards. Also, isn't it possible that since such a good card came out for one color that WotC will make good on it and bring out its counterpart that quiets those that complain about the first "broken" card int he first place?
For instance, people throw hissy fits over Jace, the Mind Sculptor , but Dreadbore is easily fit into most builds and wipes him out. Pithing Needle fits into every single build and shuts him down. But you can counter Dreadbore and destory Pithing Needle , so then it goes on and on that the counters can be countered, and so one. But the point is, that's part of the game.
I am by no means the best MTG player there is, and do not mean to claim that I know more than anyone else, but creating a card, and then banning it becasue it makes the game too hard for players to play against it is like saying you have to ban tall people from playing basketball becasue the short guys aren't making enough baskets. Yea, it would suck to lose to a card that should be "banned", but its part of the game.
February 19, 2013 4:05 p.m.
I think Ancestral Vision should be un-banned, I don't see the reason for that, if it was suspend 2 then yeah, but it's suspend 4. I also think Stoneforge Mystic should be un-banned, but only because I really like that card and played with it a ton when it was legal. Seething Song should be un-banned, the combo was powerful but takes a skilled player and there's plenty of ways to shut it down Ethersworn Canonist . I can't think of any cards that should be banned, I don't like banning cards unless absolutely necessary. Stoneforge Mystic should not have been banned in standard, just Big daddy Jace.
February 19, 2013 4:12 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
@capriom85: That argument has several holes.
First, the game evolves with every new set, deck, and card. The functions of cards change, and their power levels change as a result. Also, it's folly to think WotC doesn't make design mistakes (Jace, the Mind Sculptor , Snapcaster Mage ). As these changes occur, some cards exceed what is acceptable in terms of balance. Bans are a way to maintain balance in light of format shifts.
Second, the argument that cards like Dreadbore and Pithing Needle are viable solutions to power cards is too presumptuous. Those cards have limited applications outside of your example because they're simply outshined by other options. "An answer exists" is a weak counter to the argument that power cards warp a format.
February 19, 2013 5:17 p.m.
ok, so then as a cards power increases it should be removed from the format? I get why Jace, the Mind Sculptor had everyones panties in a bunch, but why single out Snapcaster Mage ? I run them and a few others at my local shop do as well, and I haven't found them to even be in the top decks. I think they have a very powerful ability, especially for a 2 drop, but I wouldn't claim them broken. My argument is simply that I personally have no issue with power cards being just that...power. I see why there is a banned list for some formats, I just wouldn't mind it myself if it didn't exist at all. I am sure yo uare a more well versed player than I, being I am currently back from an almost ten year break from the game. I am almost certain there are things that I have missed that may sway my argument the other way. Just like the necessity for "bad" cards to exist, I took cards becoming broken as, again in my own opinion, just another part of the game that you learn to roll with and try to evolve beyond it with your deck design.
February 19, 2013 5:26 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #7
One of the things Wizards tries to do with Modern as a format is keep it fun and fair for all people. Unlike Legacy, which is pretty much fair game, Modern maintains a rolling banlist to keep the game interesting. When Wizards notices that 80% of the decks competing in a tournament are all running Jace, the Mind Sculptor , they realize that there is a problem, and fix it to keep the game from getting degenerate.
It is much more fun to build and play against a variety of decks. At the point where you start thinking "I have to run JtMS or I lose", the game starts to get dumb.
February 19, 2013 5:32 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
I wasn't suggesting Snapcaster Mage be banned. I was using it as an example of a design mistake.
As landgrafb stated, Modern is WotC's pet format. The DCI aims to keep it exciting because it's still a new thing, and it's developing rapidly. Changes have to be made to the format to keep it from degenerating or getting too monotonous. For example, Bloodbraid Elf was recently banned because Jund decks were Top-8ing like crazy and there was little format diversity at the highest level of competition.
February 19, 2013 5:55 p.m.
I'm also trusting of the DCI's ability to make a ban list.
One thing that I didn't know though was that card:Umezawa's Jitte was banned. It's a good card, I agree, but I don't see what makes it ban-worthy. Not saying it isn't, but I don't see why and I'm curious about it. If any sword-like piece of equipment was going to get banned I would have thought it would be one of the Scars-block Swords of X and Y over Umezawa's Jitte. What made it get on the ban list?
February 19, 2013 6:22 p.m.
Ok, I can see how, at the competitive level, the game would get very monotonous when 80% of decks run the same cards and ideas of how to use them since you can get caught in a "if I don't use "X", I will not win any games" situation. Perhaps, saying that ALL cards should be legal across ALL formats is a bit hasty. Like, I said, I am back into MTG after a 10 year break and so far I have played only Standard since getting back into it about 5 months ago. So my next question is...if Modern is meant to be a fair playing field for all players, what do the oens that have not been involved in magic long enough to draw from such a large pool of cards do to even the odds? Is it really just a question of budget vs how badly you want to use some of the older cards that you missed while out of the mix? For example, I would much prefer to run Maelstrom Pulse over Sever the Bloodline in my Jund build, but with a $12 price tag versus under $2 my Jund looks like it will be running Sever over Pulse for now. What my question is exactly is, Do I simply make due wtih what is readily available to me, or is the only way to be competitive in Modern right now to open up the wallet and take a hit for what is needed?
Epochalyptik: I'm not understanding what you mean by Snapcaster Mage is a design flaw. Do you mean that the card in too powerful, and has the same potential as cards like Jace, the Mind Sculptor to make for monotonous decks at the top level of play? If that was your point I can see it happening and concede the point to you on that one.
February 19, 2013 8:49 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #11
That's partly my point, but WotC themselves admitted Snapcaster Mage was a mistake. The card is just too powerful given the abilities and mana cost. When Mana Leak was still in Standard, Snapcaster Mage was an absolute all-star. The "solution" was to simply not reprint Mana Leak , but Snapcaster Mage remains quite powerful.
As for the other part of your comment, you'll need to figure out some creative workarounds. One thing you might try is reading up on the top decklists from recent Modern events to see what everyone's playing. You could also talk to some Modern players or check out discussions in Modern forums. As for the price tag, it's unfortunate. The barrier to entry for constructed play has been steadily creeping up, especially for Standard. The BtE for Modern is high as well, but WotC and the DCI have been trying to control that with strategic banning and reprinting policies. Despite these approaches, though, many format staples are still quite expensive, and newer players (as well as those players with lower budgets) often find it difficult to put together a competitive deck without breaking the bank.
February 19, 2013 8:56 p.m.
card:Umezawa's Jitte is a ridiculously broken card. It's cheaper than Serrated Arrows , has amazing synergy with first strike/double strike, and it often grants tons of card advantage by blowing up several creatures each turn. Swords require you to deal combat damage to a player, card:Umezawa's Jitte is just combat damage.
Once it hits the table, you'll control the board with no problems. It would be an automatic four-of in any aggro deck. Oh, plus it gives you life and can be used with Coretapper if you want to trolololololol all over the place.
If Wild Nacatl were unbanned, they'd probably have to ban Tarmogoyf . At least Tarmogoyf can be played around by controlling what's in your graveyard or destroying your opponent's. Wild Nacatl is a lot harder to stop when you go Arid Mesa -> Sacred Foundry .
February 19, 2013 9:35 p.m.
Thanks for the insight and I can see how snapcaster and mana leak would be a broken combo. So about wild nacatl: why is this banned and not kird ape? I am probably missing something else but it seems like a similar ability. Naya aggro would be unstoppable if those two and tamagoyf were all legal I think.
February 19, 2013 10:04 p.m.
@capriom85: Because Kird Ape is only a 2/3, vs. Wild Nacatl , which is a 3/3. Wild Nacatl can basically kill any other one-drop and survive in modern. Combined with Tarmogoyf , you're right: Naya would be unstoppable. So it's either ban Kird Ape (which isn't that powerful anymore), ban Tarmogoyf (which is used in a variety of non-aggro decks and helps diversify the format), or ban Wild Nacatl , which is what the DCI chose to do.
February 19, 2013 10:38 p.m.
Three-Left-Feet says... #15
Can somebody explain why Golgari Grave-Troll is banned? Even though some key components of Dredge are gone too? Like Dread Return
February 20, 2013 12:20 a.m.
Golgari Grave-Troll is banned because they don't want dredge to become an archetype in Modern. If they did, it would mean people's sideboards would be taken up by graveyard hate since people don't exactly mainboard card:Tormod's Crypt or Rest in Peace . This would lead to a lot of lop-sided matches where people lost because they were forced to sideboard unnecessary cards.
Dredge is allowed in Legacy and Vintage so control decks can be kept in check. Since dredge can't be countered or dealt with easily pre-sideboard, negating cards like Force of Will and Trinisphere .
February 20, 2013 2:11 a.m.
Three-Left-Feet says... #17
Well i figured that's why they got rid of Dread Return , because that can allow up to 12 zombie tokens with Bridge from Below and reanimation of almost anything. But I've been playing Dredge for a bit now (not like years, but a few months) and it seems like every Legacy player EVER has 15 cards sideboarded Just for Dredge (total overstatement, but Leyline of the Void , card:Grafdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace , and card:Tormod's Crypt were all kicking my butt 2nd/3rd game of matches)
And just a fun little combo; Heartless Summoning , Myr Retriever , and Bridge from Below (in the grave). Turn 2 combo, Turn 3 win if you use Faithless Looting Turn 1. Gotta love that.
February 20, 2013 8:50 a.m.
Sidneyious says... #18
These cards will never ever see an unbanning so just deal with it and move on.
March 1, 2013 8:28 p.m.
Three-Left-Feet says... #19
Well, it's very possible that you're right. However cards have been unbanned before, and this post was created to get ideas flowing and spark friendly controversy. Thanks for your input :)
March 2, 2013 2:43 a.m.
I think reprints belong in this category. How about a reprint of some older goblins? Skirk Prospector would be amazing to run and I feel it would balance out goblins with some of the other decks that are being run in modern. (Or maybe I'm super biased and would just like to sac my goblins for a lot of mana....) It is erksome that a few great goblins were reprinted in Duel Decks but those reprints aren't considered sets and therefore are not allowed in Modern.
March 14, 2013 1:29 p.m.
Three-Left-Feet says... #21
You know what, i believe reprints would be interesting... I wouldn't mind seeing some Legacy cards reprinted... I also wish they'd come out with more Spirit Guides, like Simian Spirit Guide and Elvish Spirit Guide. But if something like Lotus Petal or Daze was reprinted, i wouldn't be complaining.
March 14, 2013 9:01 p.m.
alpinefroggy says... #22
SFM Unbanned? Yes no jitte but swords are still there to be abused let alone Batterskull. Its too powerful. A card that fetches you a powerful card and then saves mana on that card and can then where it? It would make cawblade which is an already good deck in modern much too powerful.
March 17, 2013 5:10 p.m.
Sidneyious says... #23
Batterskull would be abused more than a sword, swords are ok but t3 a 4/4 lifelink vig at flash speed is not cool, it wasent cool in t2 and it wont be cool in modern.
Caw blade would be the most dominate deck again even though it only has weak jace's to make use of it but still do you want to deal with that?
Aggro decks would die, combo would be alright but control as it is would just suck even more than it does now.
Thats why it was banned in the first place, that and everyone and there dog was playing it just like jund was. WOTC dont like metas like that.
March 17, 2013 9:56 p.m.
Three-Left-Feet says... #24
Well, I feel like I better understand why she was banned now :) thanks for the input
March 17, 2013 10:26 p.m.
Sidneyious says... #25
even though bbe got the axe its still one of the strongest decks in the format.
Epochalyptik says... #2
Mental Misstep should definitely stay banned. It's way too powerful in a format like Modern, where 1-drops are the foundations for every deck. The Phyrexian blue mana cost makes it all too tempting to run a full playset mainboard just to hose your opponent.
Stoneforge Mystic could probably be unbanned. card:Umezawa's Jitte isn't Modern-legal, so the next likeliest candidates for fetching would be reasonably tame.
Wild Nacatl is the subject of some good debates, and I'm not wholly sure what would happen to the format if it came back. Without Bloodbraid Elf , Naya is a bit less imposing. However, it's still comparable to a mini-Tarmogoyf in a format where shocks and fetches rule the land bases.
I'm not a Modern player, so take these comments with a grain of salt.
February 19, 2013 4:03 p.m.