Unbanning
Modern forum
Posted on Jan. 8, 2014, 6:35 p.m. by EvenDryke
If you could remove any five cards from the current ban list what would they be?
I would remove Ancestral Vision , Bitterblossom , Golgari Grave-Troll , Mental Misstep , and Wild Nacatl .
I think the current meta could handle them. And as a control player, I like to open up possibilities for more control decks.
ryuzaki32667 says... #3
Mental Misstep would warp the format again, mono (insert any color) would play for the simple fact that the could and some games would be decided by who had the most in their opening hand, only other one i'm iffy on is Ancestral Vision still feels very powerfull
January 8, 2014 6:44 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
You cannot unban Mental Misstep if you want Modern to be healthy. That card is a destructive mistake that poisoned (or threatened to poison) several formats. It's a free answer to one of the two most important CMCs in Modern (and Legacy, for that matter).
Wild Nacatl might be fine, especially since the banning of Bloodbraid Elf . You'd need to watch Zoo closely, though.
January 8, 2014 6:44 p.m.
Sensei's Divining Top , Stoneforge Mystic , Bitterblossom , Umezawa's Jitte , and Ponder . I like Esper.
January 8, 2014 6:45 p.m.
alpinefroggy says... #6
I could see Ancestral Vision
and Bitterblossom
maybe one of the cantrips and thats it most of the other cards were banned for good reason.
January 8, 2014 6:48 p.m.
ryuzaki32667 says... #7
at that point why not jace too lol, bring back the caw blade
January 8, 2014 6:49 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #8
Jace, the Mind Sculptor because I'm a dick like that
January 8, 2014 7:54 p.m.
I've seen good arguments for and against unbanning Jace, the Mindsculptor. I would unban it because I don't like how little control is played in modern. On the other hand, it can win games by itself and is counter productive to making the format more accessible. I'm on the fence about it. Maybe if Wizards prints a better Dreadbore .
If Mental Misstep has to stay banned, I would probably unban Jace, the Mindsculptor just to see what happens. Although unbanning "just to see" and then re-banning it might drive people away from modern.
January 8, 2014 7:59 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #10
the only way to make Dreadbore better and fair is to make it instant speed, which they did with Hero's Downfall
January 8, 2014 8:04 p.m.
January 8, 2014 8:45 p.m.
ryuzaki32667 says... #12
Maybe they should unbanning everying for a month, to test the waters/figure out what could remain off or go back on/ remind people of why certain stuff was put there in the first place.
Wanna play with fire, fine get burnt basically
January 8, 2014 8:51 p.m.
That would be interesting as long as they made it extremely clear that the unbanning is temporary.
What deck do you think would do the best in that scenario?
January 8, 2014 8:57 p.m.
And/or which specific card do you think would have the biggest impact?
January 8, 2014 8:58 p.m.
ryuzaki32667 says... #16
I'm not really sure, I've been in modern for a short time, I started after the banning of BBE , But looking at the ban list, a real dredge deck may pop up with with the Troll and Dread Return available, as well as affinity would get a crazy boost, But at the same time each other deck would have more powerful tools, blue would get ponder to search for answers, But it would probably be fun for first week cause you'll have the excitement of I get to play with "~~~" , then the next week ugh I have to play against "~~~~" again...
January 8, 2014 9:06 p.m.
I was really annoyed to find that Bloodbraid Elf , Wild Nacatl , and Ponder were banned after I had made decks with them.
I'd be happy if at least one of those three were unbanned.
I don't know why Sword of the Meek is banned. I have one and never considered using it. (But then, I don't play Dredge.)
January 9, 2014 4:05 p.m.
Why did Ancestral Vision get banned. And what kind of combo potential does Sword of the Meek have to ban it?
January 9, 2014 6:09 p.m.
Vision can be cascaded into.
Sword + Thopter Foundry is just too easy.
January 9, 2014 6:34 p.m.
honestly i think Bitterblossom would be fine in modern, maybe im just missing something, but it doesnt seem overtly broken.
January 9, 2014 6:37 p.m.
@ Baycer - Bitterblossom = a free blocker each turn or attach fodder for Batterskull or any sword... each turn. If it were ever unbanned you'd see a big swing to black in Modern.
Unban Jace and print 'walker hate for all colors. Let's shake up the format a bit.
January 10, 2014 12:08 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #23
Unban Cloudpost . ROFL!!!!
Wild Nacatl Ha!
Jace, the Mind Sculptor eat my All Is Dust or feed your Beast Within
You're Ancestral Vision will only yield your board being Annihilated
Bitterblossom ? So you have some extra crap to sac...
Golgari Grave-Troll wouldn't do much by itself without Dread Return . Dredgevine could definitely use it.
I hope and pray the artifact lands stay banned; Modern Affinity doesn't need that boost.
January 10, 2014 5:11 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #24
Dammit, your. I meant your. Freaking autocorrect.
January 10, 2014 5:24 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #26
I think I could see Ancestral Vision being unbanned as I can't think of a deck that would currently be okay cascading into it now that BBE is banned.
January 10, 2014 7:42 a.m.
The only deck that does cascade now is Living End , and they're not running Ancestral Vision .
January 11, 2014 9:04 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #28
Restore Balance cascades too, but both of them cascade for their wincon, so, hitting Ancestral Vision would be terrible.
January 11, 2014 9:08 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #30
Not Invigorate ! Infect decks would be waaaay to fast!
January 19, 2014 4:49 p.m.
Three-Left-Feet says... #32
Keeping in mind that all the cards got banned for a reason, but that there's also other crazy powerful cards still in format... Also I'm not exactly showing a bias, since I personally wouldn't plan on playing against any of them.
I, personally, think Stoneforge Mystic wouldn't be too terrible to bring back. I say this without the intent to play it. I'm building Eternal Command. I mean, the idea that it can bring out Batterskull is scary, but that's the only incredibly powerful thing it will do, and plenty of decks mainboard Spell Snare , so... It's not like an unbeatable thing. (Again, powerful, but so is Through the Breach + Emrakul, the Aeons Torn , and that's a lot more fatal...). Not only that, but Stoneforge Mystic pretty much dies to all removal spells in the format, so if you've ever heard the term "In response...", this would just be another one of those instances.
Bitterblossom is amazing too, but Maelstrom Pulse is a thing, Abrupt Decay destroys the enchantment itself before their turn even ends, and both those cards are mainboarded in plenty of decks. The life-loss helps aggro decks that 1/1s are only chump blocking against... Then again, there are life-gain equiptments (Loxodon Warhammer ) that kind of negate the life-loss... I still don't think it'd be too crazy overall. Good, but not too good.
Wild Nacatl still dies to a Lightning Bolt , Path to Exile , Dismember , Lightning Helix , Doomblade, and plenty of other cheap removal, even when this cat is at full-power. Plus, Tarmogoyf itself has a good chance of being more powerful than Wild Nacatl by the time it's at full-power, and if it doesn't get there that early, it'll definitely get there by the mid/late game... Another amazing card, but it's not too powerful.
I almost want to say Ponder or Preordain , but Splinter Twin is already a VERY popular combo deck... I think giving it better filter-spells would do nothing but increase it's popularity and make it better.
With Dread Return banned, I don't see any reason Golgari Grave-Troll is... I mean, it's 1 more card than Stinkweed Imp going into your grave, and grave-based decks aren't very common, and they're VERY fragile. I mean, any form of graveyard hate kills off any deck using Golgari Grave-Troll , so... yeah.
That's 4 cards, and frankly, I just can't find a 5th and actually be able to justify it...
Again, I feel I'm being rather unbiased with this post, just because I, personally, wouldn't be playing them. I mean, the cards are banned for a reason, so there's always an argument that about why unbanning them is a bad idea, but I purposely avoided the big combo pieces (except Golgari Grave-Troll , because it's fragile, and Stoneforge Mystic , because I don't view it as an over-powered combo with anything modern) because most of the banned combos are non-interactive, and that's something that I strongly dislike when it comes to MTG.
January 19, 2014 5:08 p.m.
I definitely agree on Second Sunrise . The event that got it banned was due to people picking up Eggs for the first time and not knowing how to properly play the deck. Judge warnings and/or disqualifications should have been given out to the players who kept going to turns, not gutting one of the few glass-cannon combo decks left in Modern.
I would also like some sort of Brainstorm to be back in the format. Ponder or Preordain , specifically.
Ancestral Vision and Golgari Grave-Troll are my other two choices for cards not really broken in Modern, especially with their support cards not being legal in the format.
There's a few Legacy cards I'd like to see reprinted and made Modern legal, not necessarily unbanned. Psychatog could give some much needed love for Control decks that aren't B/G/x or U/R/x. The Onslaught fetchlands can offer more color combinations that we don't see in Modern due to the mana base available for those decks. Straight U/W Control or Esper decks, for example, could benefit immensely from Polluted Delta and Flooded Strand , while some of the more traditional-style aggro decks, like Zoo or Goblins, could have more consistent mana bases.
Then there's Stifle , Red Elemental Blast , and Tendrils of Agony , but I doubt the DCI will let us have nice things.
January 20, 2014 7:42 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #35
@sylvannos: I disagree with your assessment that ONS fetches would lead to a shift in color combinations. Although the ZEN fetches favor enemy color combinations, they're still fine for fetching shocks in bicolor decks. All ONS fetches would really do is change deck composition to include the fetches best suited to the colors. ONS fetches wouldn't have much other impact.
As I've said in the past, going from five fetches to ten is MUCH different from going from zero fetches to five. In this situation, we're just expanding possibilities. We aren't creating them.
I also don't support unbanning Second Sunrise for the same reason I don't support unbanning Sensei's Divining Top : it just leads to an unnecessary waste of time. Even if half the players who ran Eggs pre-ban figured out the deck, there'd still be plenty of players who don't know it. You also have to account for the opponents who have never seen Eggs before and need it played out and for the opponents who force the Eggs player to play the combo out in the hopes that he or she botches it (and it's not unreasonable on either party's behalf).
January 20, 2014 7:55 a.m.
Three-Left-Feet says... #36
Reprints would have great potential...
I wanna see an Armageddon reprint :3 oh my god would that make for something fun AEther Vial and Crucible of Worlds would reck shop!
Then again, plenty of people would side in Crucible of Worlds ... Idk, still fun!!
January 20, 2014 7:59 a.m.
Golgari Grave-Troll , Bitterblossom , Wild Nacatl , Sensei's Divining Top and Dread Return . Just stuff that could be let back into the format without taking over.
January 20, 2014 4:36 p.m.
alpinefroggy says... #38
Its not that those two cards would see play and thus make Armageddon
good/bad, its more of that with armageddon you need to be ahead on the board to win.
January 20, 2014 4:36 p.m.
Oh whoops...Golgari Grave-Troll and Dread Return would be OK to be unbanned separately but let's replace Dread Return with Ancestral Vision on my list.
January 20, 2014 4:41 p.m.
alpinefroggy says... #40
They could try it. I think faeries would probably be a big deck and beat a lot of thigns, but the format would probably stabilize as people figured out how to beat it.
January 20, 2014 4:55 p.m.
Three-Left-Feet says... #41
alpinefroggy first off, your name is in my autocorrect database... The hell?
You're right though, you would need to be ahead for Armageddon to be useful! And that's another reason I think it'd be a cool reprint!
It wouldn't be too powerful of a card, not when combos like Through the Breach + Emrakul, the Aeons Torn exist in modern, so I think it's actually a pretty fair thing that'd introduce another Tier 1.5-2 deck into the format (I don't even have Tier 1 hopes for it, haha, but still, FUN!!!)
January 20, 2014 5:48 p.m.
Armageddon just might make it possible for a somewhat competitive superfriends deck.
I first got into Modern with an Esper suprefriends deck, so that would make me very happy.
January 20, 2014 5:54 p.m.
@Epochalyptik: I'm referring to seeing certain decks at a more competitive level, not necessarily new brews. If you want to play a competitive aggro deck in Modern, you pretty much have the options of Affinity or....Affinity. Zoo, for example, rolls over dead to Blood Moon or Tectonic Edge because it can't always use its fetches to grab basics. For example, when you have Verdant Catacombs when what you really need is Windswept Heath to get a white source in response to Blood Moon . Verdant Catacombs can only grab Temple Garden .
It's not as drastic as going from zero fetches to five, but it's like going from five scry lands in Standard to the full ten. Part of what holds G/W back is that it has to use Selesnya Guildgate , vs. R/G having Temple of Abandon . Having the extra library manipulation and Deathrite Shaman fuel would help some decks that aren't seen as often have some help with their consistency issues. RDW, for example, is a lot better when you aren't limited to eight fetches to feed Grim Lavamancer .
As for Eggs, here's the thing: people still play Eggs. It still wins on turn four. It still takes a considerate amount of time for it to combo off. Banning Second Sunrise just made the deck less consistent all because a few derpshits couldn't pilot the deck and should have been penalized appropriately. Eggs players are just using Open the Vaults , which means they have a higher chance of whiffing.
A lot of the people who went to time each round and winded up whiffing made serious misplays each game and couldn't win because of it, wasting everyone's time. Cracking Conjurer's Bauble
on turn one. Trying to go off on turn four or five when they could have waited a few more turns to sculpt their hand and go off for certain. Using Ghost Quarter
s on their opponent's lands. The list goes on.
Players like Nathan Holiday, who won GP San Diego and made the deck popular, are penalized for bads being bad. Since Second Sunrise was banned, we've seen less format diversity with Splinter Twin being the combo deck of choice, instead of Eggs, Scapeshift , and Pyromancer Ascension being played along side it.
January 20, 2014 7:09 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #44
@sylvannos: Valid points. There is something to be said, though, for accounting for the lowest common denominator. There are plenty of competent players who could use Sensei's Divining Top or Second Sunrise in an efficient, effective manner, but they aren't the players that will create the problem. It's the players who don't know what they're doing that cause the disruptions.
I'm sure I'm less familiar with Modern than you are. What do you think would be the implications of unbanning either (or both) of the aforementioned cards?
January 20, 2014 7:16 p.m.
ExpectDragons says... #45
With modern being such a fast format and decks like boggle being very strong Wild Nacatl seems like the best candidate for unbanning more so when you consider how much removal have changed since it was banned. Decks that dominate meta's like British control have plenty of ways to deal with it as does Jund & Junk etc
January 20, 2014 8 p.m.
Three-Left-Feet says... #46
If only wizards was actually paying attention to this forum...
January 20, 2014 8:03 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #47
Wild Nacatl was also banned at a time when Zoo was far more dangerous: Zoo had access to Bloodbraid Elf . Without BBE, Zoo isn't as deadly.
However, Wild Nacatl does remain a very respectable and efficient beater. It's the turn-one Tarmogoyf as far as Zoo is concerned. As I said a while ago, it's not inconceivable that an unbanning would occur, but the DCI would need to watch Zoo closely in the next couple events.
January 20, 2014 8:05 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #48
My realistic vote is for Green Sun's Zenith . There's plenty of answers from Thoughtseize , Aven Mindcensor , Gaddock Teeg , Spell Pierce , etc.
I'd love to see Wolf Run make a Modern come back...
January 20, 2014 9:08 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #50
@cestdesconneries: Why should Shadow of Doubt be banned? It's a rather limited card. It's good for hosing certain decks, but it does nothing on its own besides draw you a card for U/B U/B. Even when it does hose a deck, the effect only lasts until EOT.
alpinefroggy says... #2
Nacatl and misstep nooooooo!!!!.
Reasons: Hvae you seen how the card warps formats? Legacy for instance. Multiple format mainstays were completely unplayable and every deck played 4.
Nacatl is a stupid card. It make all aggro and most midrange decks unplayable making it so if you want to play creatures you play The cat.
GGT could come off as a tester and those last 2 cards I agree they should come off and see what happens. The format would see a resurgence of the decks that could exist with those cards but the format would adapt.
January 8, 2014 6:43 p.m.