What if Daze was modern legal?
Modern forum
Posted on Jan. 3, 2016, 5:49 p.m. by ToolmasterOfBrainerd
Just a hypothetical question. I know Daze will never see a Standard printing, but I like brainstorming how certain cards would impact the meta, so what if we had Daze? Twin would certainly be more powerful, as would Merfolk, but control could finally become a thing, which would make a lot of players happy.
Would Twin become too powerful? They still wouldn't be able to dodge Abrupt Decay, and Daze cast against Twin could also be interesting to help keep it in check, but Terminate would become less deadly.
Would Merfolk become too powerful? With Cursecatcher and Daze they could force an opponent into making a lot of unfavorable plays.
Could it do enough to help control or would it help Twin and Merfolk too much? Control would certainly be able to hurt the faster decks like Burn and Affinity a lot more so they don't lose before the game even begins, but would it be enough?
Would making Daze legal hurt aggro too much and favor blue too much, or would it help to balance the color pie and give control the boost it needs?
This is not meant to be an 'is this a good idea' question, but more of a 'what would happen'. Thanks for contributing!
It would obviously make those aggro decks that dont rely on lands a lot better. Specifically in the early game.
Later on in games it's not huge, so I'm unsure about twin or other control/combo decks.
The cards way too good to be in modern but only when fielded in a very limited number of decks.
January 3, 2016 6:05 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #4
I'm confident that control decks and Twin want nothing to do with this card. They rely on hitting land drops, and the Spike effect is incredibly inconsistent anyway.
Delver and Infect would be the best choices by far. Some people already play Deprive in Delver. I'm not sure how good it would be in Merfolk because the deck may become too reliant on Vial, but probably still quite good.
Daze doesn't hurt aggressive decks, it helps them immensely.
January 3, 2016 6:15 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #5
Makes sense. What do think it would take to make control viable in modern. Or better yet, what does legacy control have that makes it so much more viable than modern? I don't think Force of Will is the correct answer for that, but it might be.
I forgot about infect when brainstorming about that card. I think you guys are right about what it would help, although being able to go for Twin turn 4 and secretly still have countermagic up seems nice, even if it is just a Spike effect. It makes it harder for the opponent to leave up removal, meaning they're doing less on their turn, so the twin player is happy either way.
When I suggested Daze hurting aggressive decks, I was mainly thinking of Burn, but Delver would get a huge boost from it.
The land bounce effect is offset by the fact that you're usually bouncing a Shockland, but those decks are so unreliant on their lands by turn 3-4.
January 3, 2016 6:58 p.m.
The answer is brainstorm combined with fetchlands. It's one mana, it gets you three fresh cards while dumping two worthless ones from your hand, and is an instant. That is what allows blue control decks to thrive in legacy.
Blue control in modern would need a spell that was mana efficient, specifically cost UW so that it had to be put in a real control deck, and was more than just a cantrip. Something like 1UW, Instant, Scry 1 then Draw 2. Something expensive enough to be a 2-3 of in legacy, but inexpensive enough that you could play it as a 4 of in modern. Strong enough to make control decks a real threat, a real enough threat to kill off two or four of the current real decks, but not strong enough that everyone decided to play UWx control.
January 3, 2016 7:14 p.m. Edited.
As a follow up, I think that Reflector Mage could be jammed in UWx control as a 4 of quite easily in modern. Four Reflector Mage, four Flickerwisp, four Snapcaster Mage, and four Sun Titan would be the shell I start with.
Maybe some Aethervial's to make em all instant.
January 3, 2016 7:18 p.m. Edited.
CanadianShinobi says... #8
kyuuri117 another point to consider is that having it be UW would also limit it to from seeing heavy play in Twin unless Twin started splashing white, which is always a possibility were such a card to be printed.
And here we see the crux of Modern's problem. Control can't out do combo decks. Well, specifically it can't out do Twin. This is because Twin plays a heavy control shell, so it can easily reap benefits from anything that a pure control deck could. I'm almost tempted to say that Control can't exist as long as Twin does.
January 3, 2016 7:21 p.m.
I play tarmo twin in modern. That's my deck. And I want twin banned. I think it's too good when it's good, and too shitty when it's not.
January 3, 2016 7:24 p.m. Edited.
CanadianShinobi says... #10
kyuuri117 that means it may never get banned though. Though, I suppose one could argue that Twin, as a deck, infringes on design space. Especially since WOTC has been heavily criticized for not having control be a part of Modern.
January 3, 2016 8:09 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #11
Why would you ban Twin? It makes for the best matches in the format and has tons of interesting things going on. The deck isn't really warping, I don't think, and it's been around since the beginning so a banning would be a shot in the nuts to a lot of people.
January 3, 2016 8:34 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #12
I think a UW or 1UW cost card could work. Brainstorming with fetches to perfect your draws really is powerful in Legacy, though, but we'll never have that in modern. Maybe if they made a 1UW draw 3 put 1 back on top, it could work, but that might be a stretch. It increases card advantage by 1, which is good, and it sculpts the hand, and it's not super splashable for in twin, although UWW might seal the deal. Or what about simply UWW draw 3 at instant speed?
January 3, 2016 8:38 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #13
Any of those cards would be busted. Remember, people play Painful Truths.
All these solutions for "making control a thing" in Modern are silly. The desire for an entirely fair deck that wins very late is unnecessary and likely impossible regardless of new cards. If you want long, interesting games, we already have those. They are just played by the control decks that can actually win games, which falls mostly to combo-control decks.
January 3, 2016 8:44 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #14
GlistenerAgent hey, they banned Pod. At this point anything is possible.
All these solutions for "making control a thing" in Modern are silly
Except one of the major criticisms leveled toward Modern is how there isn't really any presence of Control. It's either combo or something like Grixis which is more akin to Midrange. And why is such a deck unnecessary?
January 3, 2016 8:57 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #15
If you're arguing for a control deck to be viable, you're arguing for more matches that are long and interactive. Modern already has that. It doesn't matter whether its name is "Jeskai Control" or "Jeskai Twin", because both decks are giving you what you want: reactive decks that usually play for longer games.
In older formats, control decks need to have some kind of powerful engine to stay afloat, or they simply aren't viable. In Legacy, it's Brainstorm (or Miracles, which has its own version of the Twin combo). In Modern, it's a combo kill.
January 3, 2016 9:51 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #16
GlistenerAgent I dunno, last year when I tested out Twin it never gave me that same feeling I get when I played something like UWR Control. And I feel like you sort of sidestepped my question: why is such a deck like the old UWR Control uneccessary in Modern?
January 3, 2016 10:37 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #17
Nothing will give the feeling of playing a pure control deck except playing a pure control deck.
I don't think that kind of deck is necessary because the kind of games people want to play with those decks already exist, just with different win conditions.
I loved Stark vs Shenhar just as much as anybody, but I think that if the deck can't compete now, we shouldn't try to forcefully bring it back. That, and any card you printed for control would be played in Twin save for serious color saturation.
January 3, 2016 10:41 p.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #18
A brainstorm varient would have to be at sorcery speed, with it either being 
for draw 2 put back 1 or 
for a regular brainstorm.
And even then, it might be too good with delver and combo in the format
I think the right thing to do is reprint Opt and ban Serum Visions
January 3, 2016 10:45 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #19
I feel like a combo win is just a superior win condition for a control deck. Why grind out a win over several turns and risk being disrupted when you could just combo out? I keep hearing people say that the problem with printing good disruption is that twin would just use it and get better. That sounds an awful lot like "any new strong control options would just go into the existing control deck" to me.
I wonder if the game has evolved past "traditional control" at this time in moderns history.
January 3, 2016 10:49 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #20
People play Predict in Miracles sometimes. Might be cool for Modern.
January 3, 2016 10:49 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #21
MindAblaze My thoughts exactly. Even the best control deck in Legacy is a combo deck.
January 3, 2016 10:51 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #22
Nothing will give the feeling of playing a pure control deck except playing a pure control deck.
I don't think that kind of deck is necessary because the kind of games people want to play with those decks already exist, just with different win conditions.
I feel like your first paragraph is at odds with the second. You admit nothing except pure control will give you the sense of a pure control deck, but then say those games exist. Except... if a pure control deck doesn't exist, then neither can the type of games it brings about. You're also implying that anyone who enjoys control should just play Twin. Which, is wrong, because as you clearly stated, a pure control deck and Twin are not going to give you the same playing experience.
January 3, 2016 10:55 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #23
I feel like a combo win is just a superior win condition for a control deck.
I suppose you could make that point. But, it's also a linear win condition. Can Twin win without comboing? I mean in a typical sense. I'm sure you have that odd game where Twin wins by pure Pestermite beat down, but on a consistent basis Twin will win though a single means. That's the point of the deck after all.
However, if we examine say... UWR Control from 2013, you'll notice it has a lot more lines of play. And it has a few more outs than Twin might. Sure, there's the typical Celestial Colonnade beat, but then there's more than an enough burn if necessary, or if worst comes to worst, Snappy beat down.
Twin is more efficient, but I would argue easier to disrupt. Especially post sideboard. And here's the thing that I've come to realize about Modern. Modern is turning into a format where decks are less interactive and whoever sideboards best will win. As such, it's a far less interactive deck. Which, I would argue is less beneficial to the format.
January 3, 2016 11:12 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #24
I disagree on the point that twin wins through a single method. They only combo in about 50% of their games. It's a pretty hand-waved statistic, but it's also pretty accurate.
But what you said near the end "Modern is turning into a format where decks are less interactive and whoever sideboards best will win." - That's what scares me a lot. The scary part is that you're correct and that is NOT how magic should be played.
January 3, 2016 11:32 p.m.
Lantern control is a thing still right or have I been running a deck after it's funeral passed. It isn't your prototypical control deck that you'd find in standard but it has that Grindy control aspect and had a bunch of lines of play.
As for the topic of daze in modern it would be really good in delver and infect but fish could probably use it. I can see it now, opponent resolves a choke and later tries casting something else I counter with daze by bouncing an island and now my next turn I'll regain that blue source I lost for the next turn if I need it.
January 4, 2016 12:50 a.m.
I don't really think modern is becoming less interactive over time. The key non-interactive decks like Tron have existed almost since moderns conception. Affinity also. We still have the big midrange interactive decks, twin which is interactive, merfolk, grixis, and many more. Even Burn and Infect are necessarily interactive in certain matchups.
The thing that no-one mentions in these discussions is that many, many people don't ever want to see or play against draw-go control at all. Because the deck is completely dull and unnecessarily slow. And Wizards have acknowledged this with their strides towards proactive gameplay. Any deck that can have a superior boardstate but still then have to spend 5 turns trying to win the game (looking at you Keranos, God of Storms) is a deck that's frustrating to play against because it's an awful waste of time. It's not that control is inherently bad. It's that control without a prompt and effective win condition is bad. It's absolutely miserable to play against anything that locks a player out of the game but then fails to win itself in a timely fashion.
Luckily this isn't purely subjective speech, it's pretty objective too. You have to win the game promptly in modern. The big interactive, slow(er) decks in the format all include cards that end the game in a single turn, or at least, very few. Twin combos. BG/x has goyfs and a range of 4 power threats, grixis has anglers. All of these slower decks that play the control game are able to decisively win when the time is right. The advantage of this is that it gives the opponent very few turns to respond and recover. This is pretty obvious. The longer you take durdling, the more time the opponent has to draw into something game-changing. That could be their 1-of sideboard card or something else.
I do get frustrated with all of this 'control doesn't exist' nonsense. It does - just not with the win condition or end game plan that you like. That doesn't mean it's not there. Two reasons that it does not exist in the draw-go, defensive form is because a) it makes for dull games according to many, many people and b) it's inherently worse than an isnta-kill. Even looking to the eternal formats, many of the control decks have a combo kill or at least a quick out.
This is kind of like me saying "Well, I like midrange, attrition but I don't want to take the quick win with Tarmogoyf, I want to play a tokens deck with Garruk, Primal Hunter" and everyone turning around and telling me, quite rightly, that in the top meta attrition does exist (so I can play the overarching style of deck that I want) but the specific win condition I've chosen is inefficient. I'm going to have the same turn 1-3 experience. But a different turn 4+ experience.
January 4, 2016 1:40 a.m.
daze alone wouldnt make much of a dent in modern. daze is mostly used in low resource decks, but those decks dont JUST play the low resource game on themselves, but also on the opponent (wastelands), while using brainstorm/ponder to stack the draws on their favour once they reach a critical mass of lands (3 or 4 tops)
daze without proper resource denial, other free counters and deck manipulation is just very very lackluster, and modern is a format specifically designed to not have any of those 3.
January 4, 2016 7:23 a.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #28
I think both Daze and Force of Will are just too good in Modern. Allowing control to tap out and still counter is just way better than anything they can currently do. The idea that we should have a Draw-Go Hard Control deck is just crazy - it would kill diversity (see: Legacy). I think there's good reason we don't have Counterspell (see below), and both cards listed above are way better (Daze may not look like a hard counter, but it's way easier to use than Force Spike, so it's just as good).
So what we do have available in Modern is lots of control cards that let you gain tempo and advantage when deployed skillfully - and I think that's a great and fair way for those decks to operate in the format. Yes, Remand and Spell Snare don't actually unconditionally counter everything in every deck like Counterspell or FoW- that's the point. Remand doesn't just kill the other deck. Remand et al. forces you to find ways to incrementally gain tempo, value, and advantage until you have a window to try and finish the opponent. It's not easy. Counterspell is. And I don't think using FoW and Daze well is that difficult, either. It's also notable that Deprive is available - I get that it's not good with Scapeshift and Colonnade - but it is a playable hard counter.
What I'd like to see in Modern is more support for soft control. I think things like Force Spike, Disrupt, and Stifle could be great in Modern, and would round out the tools available to make good soft control decks, and (this is a stretch, perhaps) maybe stuff like that can keep combos in check well enough to allow some new cantrips or the unbanning of Ponder.
January 4, 2016 3:43 p.m.
Legacy is just as diverse as modern, if not more so as there are numerous more possibilities for tier 3 jank than in modern. I understand why people don't like the format, but lack of deck diversity is not one of the formats issues.
January 4, 2016 4:30 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #30
I had a bitter, scathing response, but honestly, I just feel too tired and drained to be bothered. People don't like control. I get it... No wonder I'm starting to hate this game.
January 4, 2016 4:53 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #31
Yeah kyuuri117 - I get what you mean. I guess my issue isn't exactly lack of diversity, as I agree there are lot of different playable decks.
I guess a better way to describe the effect of FoW would be that it's polarizing. In other words, you mostly run a deck with 4X FoW and therefore a bunch of blue support cards, and therefore a control shell - or you run something really explosive, like Storm, but you're not that resilient (largely because your opponents have FoW). There are obvious exceptions, and I know I'm oversimplifying, but I think it's a useful observation about the impact of the card.
So my point is that FoW is fine in Legacy because it keeps broken combo decks in check, but combos just aren't as powerful in Modern, and anything that gets out of hand is banned. So I'd love to see control get cards that help keep combos in check, but aren't so unconditional that they're oppressive. So even if we were to see better cantrips in the format, stuff like Force Spike might help keep Storm in check, and something like Stifle would be swell against Twin (though there could also be much better ideas).
January 4, 2016 4:55 p.m.
On a completely irrelevant note, SCG's website was hacked or something during their "Last Chance" Sale last Sunday, so they've extended it through tonight. Most of their stuff has just been lowered to match TCG prices, but there are a few outstanding deals.
Specifically, they've got Mod Played Umezawa's Jitte's (The original, not the horrible looking foils), for $17, if anyone is interested.
January 4, 2016 5:05 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #33
CanadianShinobi I don't hate control. It is a mistake to say that twin only wins through combo, or even that wins well more than the majority of the time through combo. I totally understand that playing twin feels different because it really is. It is fundamentally designed to be a combo deck with controlling elements to stall the game. Having played against both Twin and Jeskai Control numerous times (although rarely piloting each) I can say that the games have distinctly different feels to them. Throwing them both into the control bucket then saying that the only difference is the win condition is plain wrong. I sideboard drastically different for them because it is undeniable that they are different decks - vastly different even. Twin is designed such that in certain matchups, they only try to make a window to combo off rather than try to control the game, and in other matchups they try to establish a clock then defend it, much like a tempo deck. Their clock might be a Keranos, like in the mirror match, but they still play more of a tempo game than a control game when they aren't going for the combo.
Jeskai control, on the other hand, tries to win by preventing the opponent from making any progress, then wins because there's nothing the opponent can do to stop them. Their entire goal is to prevent the opponent. Not to open a window. Not to gain enough tempo to beat them down. Purely to control them. Twin is not the same thing as a control deck, and such cannot be viewed as a reasonable alternative for a control player, even if it runs counterspells.
I have an idea: what if control got a new wincon? Something that is low enough mana where they can use it early to hurt the opponent, then late game win with it in a timely manner. Consider this: UW enchantment. Hexproof, ETB with 1 bolt counter on it. You can pay 1UW to add 1 fire counter. On your upkeep, it does x damage to target creature or player, where X is the number of fire counters on it. In UW it's difficult to splash for and generally not worth it unless you're playing control - UW, Esper, or Jeskai. Control can use it early to ping down affinity creatures or bring bigger stuff into Bolt range, then late game get it up to 4-5 counters and kill the opponent in a timely manner. It still might not be fast enough for some people, but I think it's better than the current alternatives. Keranos takes so long to hit the board, as do the esper control wincons, and they're not even speedy once they do hit the field.
January 4, 2016 5:58 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #34
UR or WR maybe but not UW. Pretty much every block has a red enchantment that does that as of late. See Burning Vengeance.
January 4, 2016 6:14 p.m.
CanadianShinobi do what I did. I quitted modern and standard forever long ago, and play legacy only. kids with helmets can enjoy their shitty dumbed down formats all they want. Im playing real magic.
January 5, 2016 3:41 a.m.
You mean real magic that most people dont support anymore?
/troll
January 5, 2016 8:24 a.m.
Harashiohorn says... #38
Here is the problem with control in modern, as of right now WOTC prints aggressive cards that give you more creature for your mana, a la Voice of Resurgence, but they don't print the same kind of auto-value cards for hardcore control, why? Well thats a more complex issue, but basically the gist is that WOTC has made a choice that the value creatures are more accessible cards for people to work with and enjoy, while the value controlling cards require a much higher skill level to work with which is the issue. In short, you have to graft together control in modern because control dominated formats are "Too Hard". And in fairness, nobody necessarily wants the tediousness of decks like LANDS in modern. (another 50 min game that ends by Grove of the Burnwillows + Punishing Fire ? yaaaaaaaaay). That is all.
lemmingllama says... #2
Daze would make Infect and Delver decks the dominate decks in Modern. A low curve and cheap countermagic would allow for them to easily keep their opponent off balance until they can finish them off. Other matchups like Twin and Merfolk would also get a boost, but I don't think it would cause such a huge issue in these decks.
Control needs Counterspell to be legal for it to be viable, not a very cheap counterspell.
January 3, 2016 5:59 p.m.