What wrecks control decks?
Modern forum
Posted on May 15, 2015, 12:53 a.m. by nickiru
I been studying the UWR or UX blabla counter control decks. There are cards that help against them like Voice of Resurgence but you have to 'cast' them which is vulnerable. Can you guys help me out and tell me what cards you would play to absolutely wreck these counter removal heavy decks? whether its something you would play in mainboard or sideboard...
julianjmoss says... #3
In what colors? Going off of voice, I'm going to assume GW. Thrun is a good sideboard card. Cards that make them two for one basically is always good. Lingering souls and resilient cards are good. Discard is always fine
May 15, 2015 12:58 a.m.
any colors. My goal is to find something good for my 4 color deck, GWRB in order of color dominance. but I don't care too much about color, simply what would wreck a control deck? Its like a nuke vs affinity or Slaughter Games against Splinter Twin. What slaughters a pure control deck?
May 15, 2015 1 a.m.
julianjmoss says... #5
There are nukes since control isn't one card. That being said, you have cards like Choke and Vexing Shusher. You can always just try and go under them
May 15, 2015 1:02 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #6
Lightning Bolt, when cast like 10 times, usually gets there.
Loxodon Smiter is a decent choice
Thrun, as covered.
Most planeswalkers are super good. Xenagos, the Reveler is pretty sweet against control decks, as is Liliana of the Veil and any walker that turns into a creature (namely Gideon and Sarkhan).
May 15, 2015 1:08 a.m.
ooooo, Choke would F*&@ them over hard. trick is getting it out liek anything else, hmmmm. let's rephrase the question maybe? how does one beat a control deck? besides the obvious of playing your cards in a smart order to get what you want out; most 'good' control decks piloted by pros won't let anything slide and they have such good draw back they can keep countering 'till you got nothing left and are top decking.
May 15, 2015 1:09 a.m.
Thrun, the Last Troll is by far the best single card going up against control. As stated, Choke can be very good as well.
Your best bet if you want to beat control every time is to just play Bogles. Bogles rips through control like no other deck could hope to. Throw a few Guttural Response in the sideboard to help you squeeze your creature and enchantment drops through counter magic and you've got yourself a bonafide control stomper deck.
May 15, 2015 1:12 a.m.
Servo_Token says... #9
In a broad sense, you beat a control deck by going under it if you can afford to (Red decks), or you disrupt it so much that you eventually grind it out and eek out a win (black decks). IF you're running 4 color something or other, I believe that you will need to just grind out advantage with resilient threats and disruption.
May 15, 2015 1:13 a.m.
OOOooo I like Guttural Response. funny I just watched a world cup tourniment with a control deck fighting a bogle deck. Bogle was winning but hardly... I have also seen these decks fight controllers and really, its not too much of an issue for them to handle boglers.
May 15, 2015 1:15 a.m.
hmmm, maybe I should just play control, I haven't seen anything straight up slaughter control but i have for every other deck type.... xD
May 15, 2015 1:16 a.m.
Sounds like that player had poor draws. It happens to the best of decks. In two and half years playing Bogles often, i've yet to lose a single match to control. When i'm playing Bogles, the only other deck i enjoy playing against more than Control is Affinity. Give it a whirl and see how you feel. Don't judge it on a few poor matches.
May 15, 2015 1:19 a.m.
Oh of course, I have tested it and seen multiple games and that is why I ask if anyone knows what slaughters control. My immediate thought would have been bogle or affinity, but both me and pro players can pilot a nice control deck and out last a bogle, or out aggro since I can delay into some huge heavy hitters like Thundermaw Hellkite and burn the the kill.
May 15, 2015 1:24 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #15
How to beat control: Play well. Play less important spells first to protect the one you want to stick. Don't overextend into wraths.
You don't need a card to "slaughter" every matchup. Just know what your good matchups are and prepare for the bad ones.
May 15, 2015 6:49 a.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #16
There's not one given card that beats control... As Agent said, you really just need to play well and be careful. If you mess up, they will slaughter you. If you don't you can definitely win.
May 15, 2015 7:40 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #17
If you want a single card that control cannot deal with, Thrun, the Last Troll is basically the only one. Everything else can, and will, require effort to resolve.
Individual cards don't beat a control deck, but smart plays do. Understand how to beat control, and you shall do so. It's not as simple as sideboarding in 4 Slaughter Games like you might against a convoluted combo deck.
May 15, 2015 8:39 a.m.
hmm, darn. Thrun, the Last Troll I would agree is about the only one that can really do something 'for sure'. Playing smart is all I have been doing which was why I was wondering if there were particular cards to pin down a control deck. Its not that I am failing against control, its just the 'only' deck that I worry about defeat. especially these latest models I have been playing against, it seems it doesn't matter what order of casting I do, they have a counter for everything; because of their draw capability.
I like Guttural Response and thrun. Maybe I could even handle a Dispel just to counter a counter unexpectedly like guttural. Maybe combo with a Choke and Guttural Response xD.
Unfortunate, I am leaning towards playing control. I'm gonna try to make a better control xD
thx
May 15, 2015 11:23 a.m.
FreddyFlash311 says... #19
Damnation or Wrath of God take care of Thrun.
The potential problem with Choke and Boil is that the control decks in Modern (should usually) have blue sources that aren't Islands. Manlands, check lands, and fast lands happen.
Not much to add to what's already been stated. If you can force your opponent to make one for ones with their sweepers, not let them build up that incremental value with their cards, force them to react on your terms and not theirs, then you'll usually be fine. Control the control player, it's fun
May 15, 2015 2:16 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #20
Another problem with Choke is that it occupies the same slot as Blood Moon, which a control player must always be prepared for. Boil will almost always get countered, unless they tap out for a win-con, and at which point, you're not going to win.
Wrath of God/Damnation are only run as singletons, usually, in favour of Supreme Verdict, so they're not the most reliable way to kill Thrun. Batterskull can deal with it reasonably well, though, especially if you get them to screw up their mana.
May 15, 2015 10:24 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #21
Believe it or not, they don't always have the counterspell. Just boarding in a few more threats is often plenty good enough.
May 15, 2015 10:31 p.m.
FreddyFlash311 says... #22
JexInfinite, I think you described the problem right there- we all need more Damnations :p I just love that card. Anyways....
May 15, 2015 10:56 p.m.
I saw the GR Gainsay posted earlier, which is one of my favorite cards,
And I like Rebuff the Wicked and Gods Willing if my deck has a lot of permanents,
But OP I noticed you pretty quickly claimed you "play smart", which should really be the main topic of this thread.
Playing against control becomes a game of value. Should you try and get them to empty their counters so you can cast your win cons, or should you run your big fatties into their removal so you can get a smaller card off that will get you value over a long period of time? Its often a battle of attrition against control, so you need to make every turn and every play in a way that will get you the most value possible. Sometimes its not about waiting around to get your big win con out, its about getting as much in every turn as you can. I have won games against a control player just poking them down with a noble heirarch.
The reality is, this thread already has all you need and more, and game 2 youll be more than fully prepared. Its just all about playing their hand, cause their deck is about playing yours. Just watch their lands, and play what will win you the game, not win it right this goddamn second, cause I can promise you that card wont stick. UNTIL they tap out.
And thats how you play against control. Wittle them down, juke them into spending their permission where you want them to, and go ham when they finally tap out.
id start by looking at your deck and its gameplan and the hands you like to keep, and then discerning how you could best be tripped up using the most popular counters and removal, and then adjust your gameplan accordingly. And usually that just means slowing your game down so you can follow your spells up with anti-control
May 17, 2015 4:09 p.m.
I am not trying to start a heated argument, but I ain't satisfied. Its not that I am getting slaughtred by control, its just that they are the only deck that I can't beat 80% of the time. Also, GlistenerAgent, 99% of the time they do have a counter, the bad control decks are the one's who don't always have a counter. The control I am referring to are the top tier professional decks and they are freakishly efficiency. typically I cast anyways to burn up there counters but they run so much draw they don't run out of counters (or they have removal instead.) Nothing survives and if there is one that gets through, its a hierarch, but only till I swing with it and they Electrolyze for example, kill and draw while simultaneously countering a cast.
Thrun seems to be the primary anti-control card. There are nukes, but I 'rarely' see them in competitive play. If I do then they are wise to have it in sideboard, but rarely do I see Damnation or more commonly Wrath of God.
I am looking for a card, not game play technique. Technique can only be so maximized when the control deck is simply a superior opponent and 'controls' the game. That's why I am looking for cards like thrun.
I was looking into Vexing Shusher, Isao, Enlightened Bushi, Leyline of Lifeforce among a few others... these seem to do 'some' good..... dunno. I will be researching this 'till I come up with a solution to counter control.
May 17, 2015 5:02 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #25
"99% of the time they do have a counter, the bad control decks are the one's who don't always have a counter."
Pure control decks play around, what, 12 counterspells? At most? They'll hit about a third of them during the game too. So if you can't deploy more than 4 threats in a game, you're the bad player with the bad deck. I should also add that pure control decks are not great in the current meta, and that you're more likely to run into twin, which runs around 8 I think? (Not a Twin player, someone should back that up).
Vexing Shusher is decent in the side, Isao, Enlightened Bushi is bad, Leyline of Lifeforce is not great either. As we keep telling you, there's not one card that automatically destroys Control the way it can do so to Twin or whatever else. You have to play well.
May 17, 2015 5:10 p.m. Edited.
GlistenerAgent says... #27
That's not what happens every game. Believe it or not, they lose sometimes. That's when they don't have the right answers, or have too many threats to answer. That's what you need to do: keep slamming powerful cards that they need to answer until they can't anymore.
Your average Modern control deck plays at most 12-13 counterspells, but keep in mind that most (Snare, Leak, Remand) are situational and really only Cryptic Command stays relevant throughout.
Once again, don't try to find a hard counter to control decks. It's a strategy and style that beats them, not a card.
May 17, 2015 6:12 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #28
If a control deck wants to beat a card, it can. Thrun? Wrath of God. Manlands? Tec Edge. You need to attack them by forcing their answers on less important threats and not just blindly running your crap out each turn. I promise that you could be playing better against control decks.
ducttapedeckbox says... #2
Thrun, the Last Troll is a pain in the ass.
May 15, 2015 12:57 a.m.