What's wrong with modern esper control?
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 11, 2015, 1:50 a.m. by Deadpool213
I've Been Playing Modern for a while and while I mostly play top tier decks... I cant help wanting to play esper control as it is my pet deck. Esper control is currently a tier 2/3 deck and I'm just wandering why that is. The deck has a lot of good match ups and some pretty sweet sb board tech. the only problem ive encountered with the deck is that a lot of you're best answers are a little to slow and mana intensive. Would like to hear everyone else's opinion.
Hjaltrohir says... #3
I have actually made a personal spin on esper control so that rather than just sitting there and drawing cards, it actually does stuff.
Here is the link:
Lingering Control Playtest
Modern
SCORE: 5 | 1 COMMENTS | 170 VIEWSAlso, if you plan to play esper control I would recommend the Gifts Ungiven package in the sideboard or in the main.
February 11, 2015 1:59 a.m.
Deadpool213 says... #4
Here's my current list I'm currently messing around with My deck:
modern esper wins Playtest
Modern
SCORE: 2 | 2 COMMENTS | 49 VIEWSFebruary 11, 2015 2:27 a.m.
Honestly, the simple answer is that Jeskai control is just better than Esper. Red gives you access to Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Electrolyze, Keranos, God of Storms, Ajani Vengeant, etc. Black really only gives you hand disruption. The removal it has isn't that relevant when you consider that you already have Path to Exile in white. If you want to play a t1 control list in UWx, you're much better off playing Jeskai. Any Esper list will almost always be inferior.
February 11, 2015 2:33 a.m.
And that's coming from someone who's favorite shard is Esper. I wish it worked in Modern, it just doesn't.
February 11, 2015 2:33 a.m.
I've been trying to make it happen in Modern. It's doing sort of well, but I usually don't come across super aggressive decks.
February 11, 2015 2:35 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #8
Not to mention that Valorous Stance is available to Jeskai as well. Esper is just far too durdly to accomplish anything.
February 11, 2015 2:54 a.m.
notamardybum says... #10
modernized esper control Playtest
Modern*
SCORE: 0 | 0 COMMENTS | 5 VIEWSmade it in about 10 minutes, but im starting here. goodnight
February 11, 2015 5:16 a.m.
I would say that Esper Control is probably better than Jeskai Control against Combo and Control match-ups, when disruption is stronger than burn. And if I'm right, that's the reason Jeskai fits better than Esper in modern. There are lots of good aggro decks on the format, and against them, Jeskai just performs better. Affinity, Delver, Burn, Hatebears, Merfolks, Infect, Naya/Gruul Zoo, the Rock (Jund/Abzan)...
Against them, I'd prefer having Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Ajani Vengeant and Electrolyze over Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek or Raven's Crime. I think the disruption is probably stronger against Scapeshift, perhaps against Twin (sort of, since Jeskai can just burn Pestermite, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and even Deceiver Exarch), Jeskai Control in itself, and Tron.
So... the question is: is it worth having a worse match-up against all of those aggro decks to have a better match-up against a few combo/control opponents?
February 11, 2015 5:44 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #12
It should still be noted that Jeskai is good against combo decks, just not completely dominant like Esper. You don't need to be dominant in combo matchups to do well in the format, and Jeskai is better everywhere else.
February 11, 2015 6:38 a.m.
I like the idea of esper control a lot, but like everyone mentioned, UWR control just has more efficient win cons and takes less time getting there.
February 11, 2015 7:10 a.m.
if you esper you definately need a way to stabilize faster from bolts and burn. I have a few decks i rotate at my LGS and im lucky to scrape a 2-1 with my esper and thats saying alot. With TRON and amulet bloom suddenly popping up more here and there i have a better time, but there is ALWAYS that burn guy or that said jeskai guy tryharding for a fast win. you could always lifegain your way early with a Kor Firewalker or Timely Reinforcements, but they arent solid in most esper control shells or 1st game MB or SB for that matter. What does sound cool is Surgical Extraction + Archive Trap MB with your standard esper control wincons and a gifts package SB. just wait for the inevitable modern fetch then whammy whatever shows up to the party.
February 11, 2015 8:32 a.m.
severnaya i dont think that combo works because its YOU searching the opponents library
February 11, 2015 8:49 a.m.
i may be reading this in correctly, and my bad, but can you explain your comment?
February 11, 2015 8:56 a.m.
You search the opponents library with surgical extraction. Archive trap states that if an opponent searched their library this turn you play if for 0. but no opponent will have searched their library after surgical extraction.
Ive seen people let the opponent go thru and pull all copies of xcard after being extracted, but the caster is supposed to do it. It does more than just nab a combo piece, it allows you to see their entire deck. you could literally write out a deck list for them while your doing it. if its game 2, you can see what they sided in/out against you.
February 11, 2015 9:21 a.m.
I input it inproperly, sorry. IT should go archive first (after they fetch or somewhat) THEN surgical something good of the 13 that went to the bin.
February 11, 2015 9:36 a.m.
slovakattack says... #19
Esper Gifts actually solves the problem of Espy lacking a win-con by being able to dump out Elesh Norn or Iona fairly easily. When played right, it can be pretty brutal, and is in my opinion the best that Esper has to offer Modern at the moment.
February 11, 2015 9:49 a.m.
WovenNebula says... #20
Why not try to do Patrick Chapin's esper delve and tweak it to try to make it more efficient? Patrick Chapin's Deck
February 11, 2015 10:28 a.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #21
The main reason that esper isn't played much is that Jeskai is better and there is only room in this format for 1 control deck! If a backbreakingly good esper card was printed then I could see it seeing more play but since it is inferior, it is obsolete.
February 11, 2015 12:12 p.m.
Didn't Chapin's deck perform miserably at the PT? People are praising it left and right, but last I checked it went 0-5.
February 11, 2015 2:09 p.m.
WovenNebula says... #23
Yeah it performed poorly. It could of been decks that he faced were bad match ups, it has an interesting and new type of build, it may just need some tweaking to make it better. I'm not on either side yet but I enjoy the build .
February 11, 2015 2:29 p.m.
Granted it was a cool idea though, I have nothing but respect for anyone who'll risk a brew at a PT.
February 11, 2015 2:50 p.m.
I'm looking to build a midrange/control deck focused around 3 cards I think can make the deck really good.Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Monastery Mentor and Lingering Souls. The rest will be the usual pile of black discard/removal, white distruption and blue counters/draw cards. I'll be ignoring the wrath's and just try to value my opponents out instead.
February 11, 2015 4:09 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #27
The Mentor is better in Jeskai as well.
Lingering Souls is a good way to counter Lingering Souls :/
And Tasigur is Gas, I still think the Gifts package is a good place to start, Then eventually you can go into 4 Colour.
February 11, 2015 4:43 p.m.
Monastery mentor just gets bolted or pathed. anything at 3cmc with 3 or less toughness better change the board state hard.
February 11, 2015 4:56 p.m.
Esper Control game one is focused on stalling a lot and getting your pieces together through card advantage, finishing with stuff like Batterskull and Celestial Colonnade. Siding into a Gifts package is extremely important to provide a different "flavor" for the deck and a different route to go down if game one went horribly. I think the deck can actually make it, but the build would have to be flawless.
February 11, 2015 4:59 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #30
The "Dies to Removal" Arguement doesn't help one bit.
February 11, 2015 5:05 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #31
Also, I disagree JexInfinite Drawing cards and killing stuff is exactly what control wants to do.
February 11, 2015 5:14 p.m.
I said this in a similar thread a while back, but it bears repeating. Playing red over black also gives you a win condition. When your opponent is out of threats and you're sitting comfortably on multiple Counterspells, you can just start burning them to death. Lightning Bolt -> Snapcaster Mage -> Lightning Bolt at the end of their turn can mean they're at 12 life by the end of yours...enough to kill them in two more turns with Snapcaster Mage and a Celestial Colonnade.
As much as I like Esper decks such as Gifts Ungiven, Turbo Tezz, and Esper Tron, having access to removal that also wins the game is just too good.
February 11, 2015 5:49 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #35
bijschjdbcd Control decks need efficient win conditions. Blood Baron seems pretty good, and Batterskull is also great, but until you get to that point, you don't accomplish anything. Jeskai creates a good board state, and can burn the opponent so they can actually win, rather than banking on a win con.
February 12, 2015 1:30 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #36
Resto and Giest, Blood Baron seems solid against Abzan.
February 12, 2015 1:34 a.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #37
bijschjdbcd esper control ends to only run Snapcaster Mages and 1 finisher. Geist of Saint Traft isn't really that good in control as he is a lot more aggro based.
February 12, 2015 1:43 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #38
Granted he requires to be built around more but I feel a Geist Shell is a good place for Esper to go.
Removal + Geist is pretty potent.
February 12, 2015 1:57 a.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #39
Geist of Saint Traft midrange is pretty awesome. Removal and geist is even more awesome.
February 12, 2015 1:59 a.m.
Deadpool213 says... #42
I personally run a Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and 2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion as finishers. The only problem I have with ashiok is that he/she needs to survive at least 2 turns to actually have an effect on the the game.
February 12, 2015 4:19 a.m.
notamardybum says... #43
ashiok is the nuts
Ive made changes to the esper build i posted, mainly just switching out kitchen finks for lingering souls.
also, the mana base could be tweaked better im sure. I have tested this deck twice so far, havent had much time, but I've won both matches going 2-0. this deck isnt terrible?
ashiok is amazing. Ashiok can stall the game long enough to take over, or it just takes over. I've had opponents peck at it/he/she for maybe 6 turns, finally killing it in fear of me stealing a Craterhoof Behemoth, only for me to play another. tasigur is great, casting it for 1-3 at most, but his mill draw effect works well with lingering souls. I've had opponents have to choose between blood baron and stubborn denial...they gave me the counter because my board presence was huge enough with a tasigur and 4 tokens.
February 12, 2015 4:26 a.m.
notamardybum says... #44
ashiok isnt my finisher. blood baron, tasigur, and all my souls are finishers. ashiok helps me get to that point, and i dont have to wait til turn 8+ to get there with counter magic back up. tasigur or blood baron + stubborn denial = negate for U.
February 12, 2015 4:31 a.m.
Deadpool213 says... #45
Oh no I was just stating the finishers I use in response to previous posts. Then I just shared my opinion of ashiok... should of made two different posts... and I you're a reference to the artic monkeys by any chance?
February 12, 2015 4:38 a.m.
Deadpool213 says... #46
Sorry for the typos my auto correct likes to mess with me...
February 12, 2015 4:40 a.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #48
Elspeth is horribly alow for Modern, So is Sorin
February 12, 2015 5:30 a.m.
Sorin's actually not bad. He spits out lifelink tokens as a plus ability. The lifegain and chump blockers are literally never ending. Doesn't die to any removal spell in the format too. Sorin is easily playable in T1.5/2 attrition decks.
February 12, 2015 5:43 a.m.
bijschjdbcd - dies to removal is a tempo argument. You pay 3 mana for a creature, and they kill it for 1. They have 2 mana net advantage. They use the 2 mana to play a wincon (goyf, scooze, voice of R, anything). If you play inefficiently - you lose.
JexInfinite says... #2
Esper control doesn't accomplish anything. It sits around drawing cards, wiping the board, and not winning.
You just can't do anything with the deck. It's a limitation of cards.
February 11, 2015 1:53 a.m.