What's wrong with modern esper control?
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 11, 2015, 1:50 a.m. by Deadpool213
I've Been Playing Modern for a while and while I mostly play top tier decks... I cant help wanting to play esper control as it is my pet deck. Esper control is currently a tier 2/3 deck and I'm just wandering why that is. The deck has a lot of good match ups and some pretty sweet sb board tech. the only problem ive encountered with the deck is that a lot of you're best answers are a little to slow and mana intensive. Would like to hear everyone else's opinion.
bijschjdbcd says... #2
I meant in general, Oh this card is bad because this card kills it. I understand the idea of concept and that wasmy issue with Mentor to begin with.
February 12, 2015 5:55 a.m.
Mentor really doesn't deserve a place though. He's a proactive card and the deck is almost entirely reactive.
February 12, 2015 5:56 a.m.
I'd say that this new meta with low mana costed huge creatures might give a push to Esper Control against Jeskai Control. I mean... Lightning Bolt isn't as effective as it once was anymore, with the large amount of huge creatures like Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Siege Rhino, Tarmogoyf, etc. I'd say Go for the Throat, Ultimate Price or even Victim of Night might become more effective than Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix and Electrolyze.
February 12, 2015 7:07 a.m.
Even Courser of Kruphix and Deceiver Exarch are hard to kill on red. Those two you might kill with a Flame Slash though...
February 12, 2015 7:09 a.m.
I like the idea of a one of sorin for lifelink minions. maybe there is a case to be made for Rest for the Weary? most esper decks run 25 lands so youre gonna hit 1 every turn and this card basically negates 2 bolts by itself while you hate and counter everything else they have. ild splash 2-3 MB. makes 3-4 of thoughtseize viable too.
February 12, 2015 10:30 a.m.
There is no case for cards that do nothing but gain you life.
February 12, 2015 10:31 a.m.
However there is a case for like Fiendslayer Paladin
February 12, 2015 10:31 a.m.
slovakattack says... #9
ChiefBell: That's not really fair. Fiendslayer is one of the most underrated cards ever printed. Also, he has a lightsaber.
VWOOOM
VWOOOOOOOOOOOM
February 12, 2015 10:35 a.m.
I know. I said there's a case for him. As in, he could maybe be ok or decent or even good.
February 12, 2015 10:36 a.m.
slovakattack says... #11
ChiefBell: I know, I just wanted an excuse to make lightsaber noises :x
February 12, 2015 10:42 a.m.
in that case ild just rather toss in a sorin or blood baron w/ gifts including grisel or somewhat other lifegainer.
February 12, 2015 10:44 a.m.
Blackprince says... #13
Esper is fun but it is to slow for modern. It has great match ups against combo an control this is nothing new but has always lost to fast aggro. King of control but it still has weaknesses. I built one for fun but lost to aggro. We will see in the near future but for now it's only good in standard cause it's limited
February 12, 2015 12:15 p.m.
Deadpool213 says... #14
I've been trying out Wurmcoil Engine the card is surprisingly good (at least in my build). Also in defense of elspeth the games tend to go long and she provides a pretty great clock
February 12, 2015 12:24 p.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #15
I think that Liliana of the Veil isn't too bad in esper control at all.
The three best planeswalkers to play in Esper control in my opinion are really Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Liliana of the Veil. a case can be made for Sorin, Lord of Innistrad as well
February 12, 2015 1:42 p.m.
Esper needs early stabilizers. Besides removal and permission, Wall of Omens is great as a cantrip and chump blocker. Restoration Angel and Vendilion Clique are great too. None of the walkers are really necessary.
February 12, 2015 1:45 p.m.
notamardybum says... #17
I was definitely thinking about Restoration Angel and Fiendslayer Paladin last night. Both are great and have places in the deck. I could possibly put the jedi in the SB
Elspeth, Knight-Errant giving tasigur +3 and flying for a turn sounds saucy.
February 12, 2015 3:45 p.m.
@awesomeguy37: Have you ever played Gideon Jura in Modern? The guy is an absolute beast. Wasn't sure if you intentionally didn't include him in your list or not, so I figured he should be mentioned.
February 12, 2015 4:17 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #19
I agree with awesomeguy37's statement about walkers.
Deadpool213 Why would you play Suns Champion when Knight Errant is just better. In a competitive environment it doesn't do enough.
Gideon Jura is an exceptional finisher if you expect a lot of creature based aggro, I wouldn't take it in my 75 to anything higher than FNM unless you knew that all the decks would be soft to him.
Saying that Control is weak against Aggro is completely dependent on how you build the deck. Wall of Omens can stall until you have the ability to Wrath and draw you a card. Mana Leak and Spell Snare can hit a surprising amount of stuff early to buy time to get to your significantly more powerful endgame.
If you anticiapte a lot of Creature Aggro buiild your Deck with Wall of Omens, Blade Splicer and Kitchen Finks.
If you anticipate Burn over Creature aggro sideboard Timely Reinforcements, Kor Firewalker, Dragon's Claw and Sanctimony.
Metagaming is incredibly important, How you build your deck should be heavily influenced by it.
Fiendslayer Paladin is also amazing.
February 12, 2015 4:42 p.m.
Fiendslayer Paladin is a really weird card to put in, but can be very good. The same goes for Mirran Crusader. In my experience playing the deck, you don't really need either of them since it makes the whole control plan not as control, which detracts from the purpose of playing the deck. Also, a Gifts package in the side isn't actually that great. It doesn't make any bad matchups better and basically rids you of having the sideboard you want (that could have more control elements for certain matchups).
February 12, 2015 5:19 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #21
I dont hate Gifts as a card advantage idea, Also, Game 1 against Junk, You wrath they're board a bunch then kill them.
Game 2 They most likely dont have that much removal left so the whole Gifts-Elesh could be incredibly effective.
But yes, Dedicating 6 Sideboard slots to the plab can be risky but sometimes helpful, Again Metagame.
February 12, 2015 5:24 p.m.
Then it just comes down to build preference. I don't even mainboard a wrath in my Esper deck but I've got 11 creatures, but I keep two in the side. I just wish there was some easy way to deal with Thrun.
February 12, 2015 5:28 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #23
I think you need Wrath of God for that. Edict effects sometimes work as well.
February 12, 2015 5:30 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #24
Tasigur blocks Thrun.
It does, I personally think Midrange is a better angle for the deck.
February 12, 2015 5:31 p.m.
Midrange Esper is weird. It tries to do too much and isn't efficient at a lot of it. That's why Esper decks tend to be very focused on doing a specific thing.
February 12, 2015 5:32 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #26
Lingering Souls makes Edicts risky
Personally I like Crackling some Thrun.
February 12, 2015 5:33 p.m.
Crackle is very sexy against a number of cards but unfortunately that requires a red splash. We have two wraths that guarantee Thrun's death but I'm trying to find an easier answer. Don't want to spend 4 mana on my turn to deal with a single card.
February 12, 2015 5:36 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #29
If you are going esper control you are doing it wrong. Esper is best at combo control. Gifts Ungiven packages and Polymorph are my main choices. Best thing about Esper is you can sideboard in a token game plan if you have Polymorph as your main. I can win off of Bitterblossom really easily by just removing their boardstate if I can't seem to get Polymorph off. The problem I have with Jeskai is that it is really hard to deal with a stabilized board-state, especially if you don't have a wrath handy. Another thing to note is that Esper decks generally have a more easier mana base, most of their spells only have 1 coloured mana in their casting cost. Oh, and the deck-list itself is more streamlined. I've found that Jeskai control goes everywhere with one ofs and two ofs. With esper, you can easily become more focused in 3 ofs as esper's answers answer more things than Jeskai does. Though with the loss of Dig Through Time, many esper combo decks have been sunk in the water. Rest in Peace Only Angels Come to a Near Death Experience. Anyways, this is my esper combo control deck.
Okay Kids, It's Show and Tell Time! Playtest
Modern
SCORE: 66 | 1 COMMENTS | 6701 VIEWSFebruary 13, 2015 3:24 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #30
Putting a combo in it just makes it even more fragile. Get a Batterskull or two in there for wincons and call it a day.
February 13, 2015 4:23 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #31
I find it a hell a lot better than just a simple win con. As the general control win cons have proven to be too slow against Abzan, and not powerful enough either.
February 13, 2015 5:53 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #32
The Combo plan seems horrible against Abzan?!
Thoughtseize? Scooze for the Unburial Plan?
February 13, 2015 7:35 p.m.
forestlore44 says... #33
Has anyone ever tried playing Sphinx of the Steel Wind with a gifts/rites package? I played against an Esper Control build running it last week. It completely trounced my Zoo deck.
February 13, 2015 8:17 p.m.
Hmmmmm Gifts with the Sphinx. I actually really like that idea. I'm just not sure Sphinx is stronger than the typical Gifts finishers. It would certainly be cheaper on the wallet though.
February 13, 2015 8:34 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #35
Abzan's preventive measures don't stop Polymorph that easily bijschjdbcd, there's too many Polymorph cards for that :3
February 13, 2015 8:49 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #36
Remove the token in response? They play a decent amount of removal.
I can't imagine the matchup is at all favoured.
February 13, 2015 10:15 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #37
It's so so, but it isn't a down right automatic lose.
February 13, 2015 11:28 p.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #38
kmcree I use the sphinx in my sideboard gifts package of my esper control as it is a lot cheaper, whilst still being good. Obviously it isn't as good as Iona, Shield of Emeria or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite so he will be swapped out when I acquire one of those two, but I have found him useful.
February 14, 2015 2:37 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #39
Almost all sphinx's are females awesomeguy37 (I think there is one that is male), just nit-pickying, you can tell by the boobs :p
February 14, 2015 5:19 a.m.
Hjaltrohir says... #40
I think I referred to it being both a male and an 'it' so I am very sorry for offending the sphinx race :(
February 14, 2015 7 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #41
Femme_Fatale But Gren in Cowboy Bebop had the jiggle-jogglers and he was a guy.
Remember, don't do drugs, or you'll grow jiggle-jogglers.
February 14, 2015 7:33 a.m.
UHHHH i think chapin went winless with that deck for a reason
February 14, 2015 1:42 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #43
I'd like to discuss that with Chapin.
Maybe just being so Threat light hurt him against discard but I love the deck in concept.
February 15, 2015 4:22 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #44
@ Satytap
I had to play against is a bit this weekend, and the deck is actually pretty good. Also, several first hand accounts from the PT point to misplays on Chapin's part due to him getting right around zero hours of sleep the night before.
February 15, 2015 4:27 p.m.
Top2inGrave says... #45
UWR control might be thought of more properly as aggro-control and I don't think it can be easily compared to Esper. It's misleading to compare bolt to black removal, since that's not the main reason people play Esper--although it is one reason, but this is mostly post-board. Also, UWR simply isn't the draw-go permission style of play that modern Esper can and is. Esper is a slow deck that is almost 100% about keeping a clean board state, watching your opponent gradually dwindle into top-deck mode, while you methodically sculpt your own hand into seven effective answers to anything and everything the other side of the table can possibly do. That's it. That's old-school, Elixir of Immortality-style control. The win-condition is practically an after-thought. You might as well just let your opponent deck themselves. If you are kind you will mill them. If you are very kind you will kill them with Celestial Colonnade. It might be more properly understood as blue-white control that splashes black primarily for Esper Charm, a card that is, frankly, insane, and is always run as a 4-of. Let me repeat: the purpose of the black is Esper Charm, plus some amazing sideboard options of hand-disruption. UWR, while obviously a strong deck, doesn't operate like that, and it also doesn't do nearly as well in grindy matchups. Like UWR, virtually the entire Esper deck, besides the board wipes, is at instant speed. But UWR doesn't typically run board wipes. And, although these things are a little ambiguous, destroying all creatures is what makes control control--ya know? You also have access to cards that other decks cannot run with any real profit (Logic Knot, for example). The other cards that really make Esper Esper are typically a full set of Cryptic Command and often some number of the skill-intensive, mana-costly, but wildly powerful Mystical Teachings. It also runs 1-2 Sphinx's Revelation and almost always 4 x Think Twice. It is a deck that balances removal, permission and card draw in almost equal numbers. Don't dismiss how powerful this kind of archetype can be.
March 21, 2015 9:48 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #47
Jeskai isn't an aggro-control deck. It's just as much a pure control deck as Esper is, it just has a better way to win the game. Jeskai is just as much about keeping the board clear and gaining card advantage and building up answers.
However, "the win-condition is practically an after-thought" is a horrible way to go about Modern. You can't just find some win condition at some point, because you can't always expect to gain full control of the game. You need ways to race when worst comes to worst, because sometimes your hand of counterspells doesn't have a wrath.
Both decks are purely reactive, so you really can't call one control and the other not.
Logic Knot can be played in Jeskai Control. Shaun McLaren had a couple in his winning sideboard from PT BNG a year ago, as well as in some high-performing lists later on. Jeskai Control can (and really should) play the full set of Cryptic Command. People are starting to splash black for Mystical Teachings as well. Sphinx's Revelation is always a 2-of, and Electrolyze is just better than Think Twice.
March 21, 2015 10 p.m.
Four Cryptic Command just seems like a bit much. I've tried it and it feels very clunky. It always feels better at three just so it's not as clunky. Logic Knot is a weird card, but it can be pretty good. Then again, it can be pretty shitty too.
March 21, 2015 10:04 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #49
At 4 mana its the card you want to have in your hand everygame.
March 21, 2015 10:07 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #50
Yeah, you know those people who say that extra Cryptic Commands are clunky in your hand?
You're stupid.
As a Scapeshift player, let me tell you. We abuse the shit out of that card.
bigguy99 says... #1
I was messing around a lot with my Esper deck with the help of sloves last night and he brought up a good point saying that the deck plays a very, "Draw, go," type of style and tends to hold up mana a lot so flashing in stuff like Restoration Angel and Vendilion Clique at the end of boring turns puts a big threat on at instant speed. Also, Zealous Persecution is heavily overlooked.
February 12, 2015 5:50 a.m.