Which cards are probably 'safe' to come off the Modern banlist?
Modern forum
Posted on April 30, 2014, 8:14 p.m. by forestlore44
Now that we're three months in from the unbanning of both Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl , neither one seems to be making any sort of significant impact on Modern at the moment and both cards turned out to be quite 'safe' . Just throwing this out there, are there any other cards currently on modern ban list that could be considered 'safe' contenders for a future unban? Any thoughts?
Skullclamp doesn't seem that broken, maybe it could come off.
April 30, 2014 8:27 p.m.
i could see Dread Return and/or Golgari Grave-Troll as being unbanned and not breaking the format. however, i think the rest of the banned list is pretty stable right now.
April 30, 2014 8:27 p.m.
Skullclamp as a draw engine is insane. you could essentially draw 4 cards for 2 mana with tokens. way to strong.
April 30, 2014 8:28 p.m.
I speak sarcasm fluently. Sometimes I confuse it with english.
April 30, 2014 8:32 p.m.
Golgari Grave-Troll definitely could and should come off.
April 30, 2014 8:48 p.m.
Golgari Grave-Troll OR Dread Return could come off. Not both. They work so well with each other (just like Bloodbraid Elf and Wild Nacatl did) that only one could be unbanned without disrupting the format.
I personally have no idea why Punishing Fire is banned. It seems very situational and thus, not very applicable for the banlist. I would be interested to see why it was banned.
The third and final card that I think could come off the banlist would be Second Sunrise because it has passed its prime. I agree that Eggs was horrid due to the massive flopping of most people's play but I think that the community has learned from that mistake and only the experienced players would actually attempt to play Eggs again.
April 30, 2014 9:01 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #10
Safe to come off the ban list? Christ, probably nothing right now. The meta is fine. There is no conceivable need to unban something for the sake of unbanning things.
April 30, 2014 9:02 p.m.
pokeyrabbit says... #11
Punishing Fire is banned because of its synergy with Grove of the Burnwillows
April 30, 2014 9:08 p.m.
Jacques ~ they won't unban Second Sunrise because it makes the deck piloted Cifka way to powerful. That deck could combo as early as turn 3-4 consistently because of it.
April 30, 2014 9:12 p.m.
pokeyrabbit: I understand that synergy, but I would really need to see a deck that abused it. Paying 3 mana for 2 damage is quite bad, even with the continued recursion. The format has much better burn spells, so I don't understand why it was banned.
Bellock86: Yes, I know about Eggs. It really is a powerful deck but it was not overpowered any more than most decks are. The real reason Eggs had its lifeblood banned was because of the meta-shift that it generated. In the wake of the deck's success, many players attempted to play Eggs, yet didn't understand how it really worked. The fact that many people were playing Eggs and taking a 16-minute turn (ironically, also failing to combo off) made Wizards slam the banhammer down hard.
April 30, 2014 9:20 p.m.
@Dagger - true statement sir
@Jacques - not doubting your knowledge just saying. And I will concede the point that many people attempted (poorly) to pilot that deck. The deck definitely required being intimately aware of what your cards were, how they worked for you, and when to do what and anyone that just tried to pick it up and run with it without doing proper testing and research usually messed it up leading to the scenario that you described above. I'm not saying that these players were unskilled. Quite possibly merely wanting to play that deck could have led to the conclusion that they were quite good players that just didn't understand the subtleties required to pilot the deck properly.
I will say that unbanning Second Sunrise would bring another deck back into the fold. However given the complex nature of the deck and the fact that as DaggerV pointed out it is EXTREMELY boring to play against I think at this point WotC's logic for leaving it banned is the "if it aint broke don't fix it" mentality. I do not actively play modern but have been following it very closely as I have a lot of cards that are part of the tier one card pool of many decks in the format and from what I have seen the format is very healthy right now where the decks are concerned with the recent banning of Deathrite Shaman . This is mostly mere opinion of course so take it for what you will. I just wanted to make sure that you understood I was merely coming from a point of observation and not pointing at you saying "you're wrong because..." and was actually saying "i disagree with you because......"
Also I feel the need to agree with you about Golgari Grave-Troll OR Dread Return . I was around when that duo was legal in standard and those two even with a more limited card pool was terrifying. I shudder to think what they would do together with some of the cards legal in modern.
- cringes uncontrollably *
April 30, 2014 9:43 p.m.
Bellock86: I definitely understood what you meant by Eggs being powerful. I think that overall it would be one of the most powerful decks in the format if it was reintroduced but my belief is that people would remember the previous time it was played and shy away from it.
April 30, 2014 11:34 p.m.
@APPLE01DOJ - while I love DRS as a card it completely skewed Jund into massively OP territory
April 30, 2014 11:56 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #20
I want to play real dredge, unban Dread Return plz.
Also, could someone explain why the Punishing Fire combo is good / ban-worthy? I may just be misreading it, but the way I see it you're paying 3 mana to deal 1 damage without losing card advantage. Is it just something to discard in a deck that suits it?
Otherwise, I'd agree that nothing really needs to be unbanned right now, and doing that would just be for wizzy to flex its muscles a bit.
May 1, 2014 12:04 a.m.
The reason Punishing Fire is banned is because of its interaction with Grove of the Burnwillows . Every deck that could afford to run it would.
May 1, 2014 3:08 a.m.
I'm not too sure when Wild Nacatl was banned in relation to Punishing Fire , but the grove+punishing engine could kill literally any threat in modern with two going at the same time (unlikely, but usually one instance is enough). Then you slowly grind out your opponent with the rest of your control spells.
Also, sorry for the double-post~
May 1, 2014 3:12 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #23
Bellock86. I have to disagree completely.
1st DRS accelerated decks to a point where things that wouldn't have a chance now could have one.
Jund was far from the only deck that used DRS, that was the real problem. Besides I rather have Midrange G/B/x decks all day than the now domination of Unfair & Unfair splashed Lightning Helix decks.
I ran DRS in my own unique Percy Pox & his removal really slowed things down and weakened my deck.
Of Plague & Persecution Playtest
Modern*
SCORE: 55 | 4 COMMENTS | 7559 VIEWSMay 1, 2014 10:09 a.m.
The point that many people are missing is that a significant amount of the reasoning behind bannings/unbannings is to freshen up the meta. DRS will almost certainly come off the ban list at some point, along with all but the most broken cards. And they will be rebanned. And banned. And so on and so forth. You get the point.
This is largely due to how little the format is impacted by new sets. Without these changes, modern would quickly become a very stagnant format.
May 1, 2014 11:31 p.m.
@Blakkhand: Not really. The DCI can leave a format without changes for a long time and still see a healthy and diverse meta. Vintage hasn't needed anything restricted in a long time and the number of top 8 decks is constantly rotating. Legacy was much the same way until True-Name Nemesis was printed. Unlike Standard, older formats tend not to get "solved" if the ban/restricted list is in a good spot. New decks creep up all the time, while players use different decks to counter each other.
As far as the topic goes, cards that can be unbanned:
Golgari Grave-Troll OR Dread Return , but not both. WotC's current reason for having both on there is so that Modern doesn't become poor man's Legacy, not power level reasons, which is a stupid reason to have a card banned.
Ancestral Vision . There's no Shardless Agent or Bloodbraid Elf in Modern. Pure control and midrange decks could really use the "oomf!" I really doubt we'd have to worry about Ardent Plea , and the other cascade cards don't fit into a deck with Ancestral Vision all that well. This card doesn't help combo because the soonest they can take advantage of it is turn five...the turn after they could have won a game had they just cast Serum Visions .
Ancient Den , Great Furnace , Seat of the Synod , Tree of Tales , and Vault of Whispers : This is about banning two cards so we can unban five. The necessary bans would be Cranial Plating and Disciple of the Vault , otherwise Affinity wins on turn three. However, Affinity gets its artifact lands back for turn one Frogmite s and Thoughtcast s, while other decks might become available. Control decks with Thirst for Knowledge and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas may become viable.
Chrome Mox : The disadvantage on this card doesn't do the same thing in Modern that it does in Legacy and Vintage. Part of why Chrome Mox enables turn one kills in Legacy is you get Land Grant , Elvish Spirit Guide , Rite of Flame , Cabal Ritual , and Dark Ritual . In Modern, we have...Simian Spirit Guide ? Plus, I don't think having a more glass cannon turn three combo is really a bad thing. Losing to a single Abrupt Decay , Mana Leak , Spell Snare , Spell Pierce , Inquisition of Kozilek , Thoughtseize , or any other early game removal would make combo decks relying on Chrome Mox more on the fringe. Unbanning Chrome Mox is for aggro, which is where its real purpose would be for Modern. Right now, the only good aggro deck is Affinity because everything else rolls over dead to Lightning Bolt and a certain 2/1 with flash. With Chrome Mox , we could see more reliable early game plays for decks like White Weenie, Goblins, Vampires, etc. similar to how these decks functioned in Extended years back.
Second Sunrise : I've made this argument before and I'll make it again. Second Sunrise should never have been banned. The players who slowed down the tournament should have been disqualified and removed from the tournament with DCI sanctions barring them from entering another tournament anywhere for a set amount of time. I don't play Eggs and probably never will, but I do know it's completely unfair to punish people who know how to actually play the deck because a few derpshits can't pilot it correctly. The thing is, you can still play the deck, but now you have a higher chance of whiffing. If I want to take it to a professional level event, I still can. It still wins on turn four. It still takes just as long. Now, it just isn't as consistent, and not for power level reasons.
May 2, 2014 4:17 a.m.
Punishing Jund, there isnt a huge difference between the legacy list than modern legal, other than that DRS and Bloodbraid Elf are banned. Punishing fire is much better than you might think it is, especially when they essentially can +1 lily and not discard a card.
Golgari Grave-Troll
is probably the next to come off the list imo, without dred return its not as strong, and dredge still isnt even really a tier 1.5 decklist imo.
Ancestral Vision
could be i think, in a turn 4 format you can still lose before it comes off suspend, and thats if its in your opening hand. plus its much harder to cascase into in a format without brainstorm, JTMS, and playable cascade spells
May 2, 2014 10:34 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #27
Yea Blakkhand but the meta before the banning was G/B/x, Pod, Twin, & Control. As of currently the meta is Pod, Twin, & Control. The only thing the banning did is make less decks viable.
All those new decks, Faerie Rebirth, Zoo Rebirth, MRC, Blue Moon. None of have really gained any steam. Tron seems to be phasing out of it's popularity post DRS ban for some reason too. 8Rack is rising in popularity & so is Burn. Neither of those decks are particularly fun to play or play against. :/ Only thing they do is reach to put a Leyline on your SB.
May 2, 2014 10:35 a.m.
Second Sunrise banning and eggs is like 4 horsemen in legacy, except they didnt ban it they just give you a game loss for delay of game if you fail to go off too often lol, id be fine with it unbanned
May 2, 2014 10:39 a.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #29
@ sylvannos your proposal for the unbanning of Artifact Lands seems reasonable. I actually play Tezzaerator and, while it's fringey, I do find it to be a viable build for the current meta, to some extent. However, I would love to have access to Artifact Lands so that I could free up some space for other cards.
May 2, 2014 12:50 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #30
No waves? What? The entire reason Zoo is a thing again is Nacatl. The reason Tarmo Twin was created was Nacatl.
Didgeridooda says... #2
None. Safer bet is for it to stay in tact.
Speculate if you want, but if there was a safe bet, the cards would have already made their jump.
April 30, 2014 8:24 p.m.