Why does everyone say Dark Confident is better than Phyrexian Arena?
Modern forum
Posted on July 15, 2013, 12:15 p.m. by Narwek
I know all the top decks are using Dark Confident, but why not use Phyrexian Arena instead? Sure, you will loose 1 life on land draws, but with Dark Confident, even if you are running cheap cc cards, your still going to be loosing more than 1 on average AND the opponent will see what you are drawing. Seems more of a disadvantage to me
1) If Dark Confidant hits a land, you take no damage. With Arena you'd still lose 1.
2) Dark Confidant has the ability if needed, to throw himself in front of an attacker, or swing in for some damage if the path is clear
3) Dark Confidant costs 1 less which means he's in play earlier, and gets you at more cards sooner.
4) Dark Confidant costs 1 black, Arena costs 2 black, makeing Confidant easier to splash and easier to ensure you get into play right away.
5) In Black, should you find yourself in serious trouble life-total wise, you actually have more ways to get your own Confidant out of play than you do an enchantment
July 15, 2013 12:20 p.m.
Another addition to Devonin's #5, Dark Confidant can wield a sword or enchantments that would give it lifelink.
July 15, 2013 3:32 p.m.
Generally Dark Confidant changes the curve of the deck is means if it flips over for 3-4, you can run Dark Confidant at them for 2 and no loss of tempo.
July 15, 2013 3:44 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #7
lol Is this a real question? Ok guy, I'll trade you my Dark Tutelage for your Dark Confidant.
July 15, 2013 3:44 p.m.
i agree with you sir, dark confidant is useless and i will never play one, if you find you are losing too much life then just make sure the creatures you do have, have lifelink or just use hella killspells to keep their board clear while you beat them with the Griselbrand you just drew for one life
also, TurboFagoot is rude
July 15, 2013 6:11 p.m.
TurboFagoot says... #9
"Dark Confidant is useless"
Tappedout has no idea how to play Magic, confirmed.
July 15, 2013 9:17 p.m.
Pretty much what devonin said. It's mainly used in aggro, so the 2/1 body is helpful and the extra card keeps momentum going. The self-harm isn't that important, but as said above, you can just sacrifice/chumpblock if necessary. Compare Dark Confidant to Liliana of the Veil . Liliana is better, but costs 1 more mana. Arena costs one more mana and is less valuable for that reason, since at the 3-spot it's outclassed. I like arena, but for a top deck you'd want bob probably.
July 16, 2013 2:50 a.m.
If your intention is card advantage (which it is, when you're playing with Dark Confidant) in no way is Liliana of the Veil better. For what Bob does, Liliana does nothing.
July 16, 2013 7 a.m.
Questions like this tend to be asked because the poster doesn't have quite the appreciation for just how important one mana is. When that mana is colored, it's even more important. There are a lot of very good reasons listed above for why Dark Confidant sees play and Phyrexian Arena does not, but the only one you even need is that it costs one less mana. It's that important.
KingSorin raises another very important point in sort of a sideways manner. If you have a deck that can support two black on turn 3, you want Liliana of the Veil in that slot. This makes it a lot harder to justify playing a second playset of 1BB cards. Again, it's about the mana.
All of the points raised above are extremely valid, but it all comes down to the mana.
July 16, 2013 9:12 a.m.
It's okay, when people first start out, it's hard to recognize the power value of some cards. When I first started playing magic, I pulled a Ravnica Bob from my tournament pack. I was like "wtf this card sucks I lose life for it??" (I think every player who starts the game doesn't understand that paying life is so worth it for drawing cards, including me.)
It wasn't until a friend told me that Bob was worth $50 (at the time), so I researched why it was so much, and understood why it was so powerful. It takes experience to recognize these things, so don't trash on other people for failing to do so. We were all newbs at some point.
OT: Comparing Dark Confidant
to Liliana of the Veil
...its like comparing a gold brick to a fighter jet. They fulfill completely different roles, and their only relation is that they're really expensive.
July 16, 2013 9:25 a.m.
My point is when you go up 1 mana, the expectations the card has to fill drastically increase. Dark Confidant is weaker than liliana of the veil (when in play... Mana cost aside), so it shows why the mana is important.
July 18, 2013 1:54 a.m.
TurboFagoot says... #15
Saying DC is weaker than Liliana is almost impossible. Which is weaker, Lightning Bolt or Force of Will? You can't say, they're both two amazing cards that do two different things that are both absolutely crucial.
July 18, 2013 4:43 a.m.
I worry that semantic wrangling is diluting the answer that OP was looking for. I don't think that KingSorin is trying to compare Bob and Lili per se, but to say that you expect to get more out of a 3-drop. I can't agree more.
I think the biggest impediment to understanding here is making assumptions. It's all about the downside of Bob versus the upside. I think the downside is getting accentuated and the upside is more subtle than is easily understood.
From the downside standpoint, I looked up a modern Jund deck, in fact the one that won the MTGO Modern Premier event this week. Averaging out the mana cost for all of the cards, I found that the average draw would make Bob do 1.22 damage per turn. So the downside is all of 0.22 damage per turn, which I think is probably less than OP envisioned.
The upside is largely based around mana cost, but the assumption is that mana cost only affects how soon you could play the card. It is not so. It's about mana efficiency and the curve, and in a Modern Jund list, Phyrexian Arena does horrible things to the curve.
Consider a very typical opening hand which contains both Bob and Lili. With this hand, the Jund player can use his mana very efficiently, playing Bob on turn 2, drawing a card on turn 3, and then playing Lili that turn. All the mana gets used up, the drawing engine starts at its earliest possible moment, and you're free to start casting 4-drops on turn 4.
If that same hand contained Arena and Lili instead, you can't spend any mana on turn 2. Then you have to decide which 3-drop to play on turn three, making the unenviable choice of delaying your draw engine and Lili by a turn each, or delaying your draw engine by two turns. Either way, you run the risk of then having to make the turn 4 choice between whichever card you held up and something like Olivia Voldaren or Huntmaster of the Fells Flip . Now your cards are stepping all over each other rather than working as the well-oiled machine that more typifies Jund.
Sometimes, one mana is worth much more than being able to play a card a turn earlier. In this case, I think it's worth much more than a quarter point of life per turn, too.
July 18, 2013 8:59 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #17
As someone who is still new to magic. I've found that Dark Confidant is just simple quicker, I've also learned to play black, u simply have to kill the opponent faster than u kill yourself.
July 18, 2013 9:07 p.m.
Dark Confidant makes decks better. Any deck he is slapped in makes that deck 10 times better. If you don't answer bob he will make you regret the fact you didn't address his board presence. He alone is what makes some decks above average because of the attention he draws plus his card draw factor. If your not behind bob name another creature card that does what he does for the same cmc. And those who aren't behind him quit being a noob!
July 18, 2013 11:04 p.m.
It's not that we're noobs, it's that we're too poor to afford the $300 for the playset...
You can easily run 857 Dark Tutelage for the price of a playset of Bobs.
July 18, 2013 11:08 p.m.
And that's why modern should never be budget. I understand it has a huge price tag but you can get a set for about 200 on eBay. Yes I know it's pricy still but with that said for a competitive tier 1 modern deck you can't skip on quality
July 18, 2013 11:13 p.m.
Definitely agree. Even with the recent MMA the hurdle between standard and modern is huge. You could easily have to skip standard for the next few years just to fund a single modern deck.
Though on the flip side, it's not that hard to build a decent T2 monocolor modern deck. A recent modern tournament held by my local LGS was won by a mono-red burn deck.
July 18, 2013 11:18 p.m.
Umm lets see here
Junkaristocratsprice tag 560 maybe a lil more tcg mid price. Can get cheaper threw trades and eBay deals
Splintertwincombo price tag 665 maybe a lil less tcg mid price tcg. Can get cheaper threw trades and eBay deals
So you tell me is modern that much more expensive?
July 18, 2013 11:40 p.m.
Modern is much more expensive. I run Junk Aristocrats in standard too, and I run Melira Pod in Modern. Melira Pod is not one of the most expensive decks and doesn't use Bob or Goyf, yet it goes for around twice as much ($1200) at TCP Player mid right now.
The difference with Modern of course is that with "rotation", all I have to do is add a Scavenging Ooze rather than build a brand new deck. Cheaper in the long run.
July 19, 2013 10:01 a.m.
Krayhaft it really depends on the deck, you can get some for 500$ which is what you would probably spend in a standard season buying a deck or two (in singles). Doing so for standard means that the money spent might very well be lost money as the prices on the cards fluctuate over that same standard season. Where as the modern deck will retain the same value for a good period of time and expect to sell at the same price you bought in to it with.
July 19, 2013 10:58 a.m.
Barandis It will cost you closer to 700$ with Thoughtseize 4-500 without it for melira pod. I know I just bought it from tcgplayer. If you're paying mid, you're doing it wrong, price at low cause that's what you are really paying, if you're smart.
July 19, 2013 11:01 a.m.
@ KingSorin It was regarding moderns High price nothing was said about bobs in the deck. now i know that this post is about bob but i was addressing a modern issue in general.
And Melira pod does not cost that much Hell My kiki Pod with most of it foiled out and a Higher price in lands Didnt run that much. It was just a little over a grand.
July 19, 2013 noon
That's why I said "You could easily have to skip standard for the next few years just to fund a single modern deck."
it depends on what modern and standard deck you're comparing. Obviously you can build a decent mono or bi-color deck pretty cheaply, but many decks are tri-color, and getting all the fetches for that alone is backbreaking.
For example, Jund can run every modern-legal fetchland. It might only run a playset each of Marsh Flats and Verdant Catacombs , but that alone is $240. That's 8 cards, not counting shocklands.
Now add the playset of Bob and Goyf. That's $840. So for 8 fetchlands and those 8 staples, you're already over 1k.
So yes, I believe you can easily have to skip a few years of standard just to fund a modern deck. Of course that depends on what you're comparing, but it's a fair statement.
July 19, 2013 12:19 p.m.
a few years???? I know when I was heavily into standard I Had like 3 to 4 tier 1 decks at the time. So selling all of those could have gotten me into modern. Considering most of the decks were minimum 400 dollars at the time.
@ Krayhaft its a preference thing you can make all the arguments and excuses in the world what it boils down to is If you want it or not and what your willing to do to make it happen. And besides this has turned into another thread all together. Start one on this topic we can hash it out there :)
July 19, 2013 12:25 p.m.
@bman5604 by all means. And it's not really excuses, I'm just putting numbers down. People are free to interpret it how they wish.
And your bit about you having 3-4 T1 decks proves my point. I was going under the assumption that someone would only focus on building a single T1 deck for a particular standard, so you saying you'd have to sell all of your decks to fund modern just helps my argument.
July 19, 2013 12:35 p.m.
i never said it was cheap and i agree with you on that Krayhaft but people will do what ever it takes to make things happen.
July 19, 2013 12:40 p.m.
July 19, 2013 12:40 p.m.
This skipping years part is the part that is in contention, no one I know has skipped a standard season, much less multiple, to build from scratch t1 modern decks.
July 19, 2013 12:42 p.m.
@bman5604, I never argued that modern wasn't worth it, I was just pointing out the financial hurdles of switching from standard to modern.
I do agree though, if someone personally wants it, it's worth the financial investment.
@gufymike, Neither do I. It was overexaggerated, but I was going off of the price differences between standard and modern decks.
July 19, 2013 12:43 p.m.
true considering they can most likley roll the standard deck they have in standard into modern. Pod decks standard into modern pod was a cheap transaction. The money i would have spent on a new standard deck i got kiki pod at the time
July 19, 2013 12:45 p.m.
@gufymike Responding late! The reason I use TCG Mid is because...well, we need a standard somewhere. Whether it's the price you pay or not, it's at least useful for comparative discussions (rather than devolving into "$1200! I paid half that!" sorts of discussions). I have no idea how much I "spent" on it because the cards were gathered piecemeal, all the way down to opening Voice of Resurgence out of boosters.
That being said, if you bought it from scratch, I'm impressed with 4-500 considering even on TCG Player you're gonna have a hard time finding the fetchlands for less than $300 (assuming 9, the playsets of Catacombs and Rainforests along with a single Marsh Flats ) and that's before you even get to $40+ Voice of Resurgence or the currently $30+ Chord of Calling . I had most of it, but I recently had to purchase the fetchlands and no one on TCG Player was cutting any breaks. (I ended up buying them at an LGS because I have a good LGS that I'll support with the few extra dollars I spend over ordering them online.)
The TCG Player low price on my Melira Pod build is, at this very moment, $898.39. (My prices do include the sideboard and its playset of Thoughtseize .)
That's all neither here nor there though. I made a decision to stop playing Standard as in the course of two seasons I'm likely to spend more putting decks together than I would with Modern anyway. Whatever the cost, as long as there isn't something you hate about Modern or something that you truly love about Standard, Modern is probably the best long-term deal.
July 22, 2013 9:06 a.m.
Compare Mind Twist vs. Mind Shatter , they both do the same thing... but one is banned in legacy, and other isn't even played in modern. That extra B mana makes all the difference, in tempo, splashing, impact etc. Splashing card advantage on a stick with such a low cost despite the life loss makes for a very dangerous card, tempo, card advantage, attacker, blocker... Phyrexian Arena on a stick at that cost would be insane! Which is why Blood Scrivener only triggers if you have no cards in hand, otherwise it would be soooo busted. You'll come to understand these things as you play... card advantage is one of the surest ways to win.
July 22, 2013 9 p.m.
@Zuckfat...that's actually a really, really good example of the difference that one black mana can make. Thank you very much.
July 23, 2013 10:46 a.m.
I was about to post a forum about this, and noticed that one was already right there. Narwek, Im thinking the same thing as you. I just started working on a modern mono black. Originally i was planning on trying to get a playset of Dark Confidant in there, but im kind of thinking..why is he so good? Do i really want to rape my wallet to get some little guy who's potentially going to damage me considerably? I wasn't even familiar with Phyrexian Arena , but I was thinking Blood Scrivener would be a decent alternative. I want greatness, but Im not sure I want it at the cost of Dark Confidant .
July 23, 2013 12:28 p.m.
I wouldn't advise Blood Scrivener
as a direct replacement for Dark Confidant
, it wouldn't fit the mold as decks that use Dark Confidant
want that early card advantage to grind out an opponent with powerful cards.. like Liliana of the Veil
and Tarmogoyf
. If I were to use Blood Scrivener
in modern I would use him in a R/B hyper-aggro deck where you want to dump your hand & blow the opponent asap. Only by having no hand at all, which red aggro can do well, does Blood Scrivener
do you any good.
July 23, 2013 1:27 p.m.
Even then, that R/B hyper-aggro deck would still want Dark Confidant over Blood Scrivener . It's funny, because Blood Scrivener + Dark Confidant is a nonbo.
July 23, 2013 1:34 p.m.
Yeah, that's the problem...the cheap (CMC-wise) aggro decks like Dark Confidant even better than Jund does. Also, I'm not sure that I would want Blood Scrivener in that deck because it does require that you blow your Lightning Bolt s at inopportune times to make sure you draw extra.
In a mono-black deck, one that has some higher-CMC cards, I could very easily see Phyrexian Arena being a justifiable consideration. However, the sorts of decks that would favor the Arena over Bob are probably too slow to do well in Modern.
I am in the same boat, incidentally. I do not own any Bobs and am reluctant to spend the money that I'd need to for them. My choice is "play a worse version of a deck that wants Bob" or "play a deck that doesn't want Bob at all", and I've chosen the latter.
July 23, 2013 2:01 p.m.
I would choose Dark Confidant as well.. but if you're on a budget, Blood Scrivener may, and I mean may, have a place in Modern, but NOT as a direct substitute for Dark Confidant in Jund or BUG for example.. it just won't work. Dark Confidant is expensive for a reason.
July 23, 2013 2:06 p.m.
Well im gunna work on getting them in the deck, the general consensus is that Dark Confidant is better. But in the meantime, blood scrivener is what Im going to run.
July 23, 2013 3:08 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #47
well Barandis my deck Sheoldred, Whispering One -†-BLΔCK-†- SΔCR‡F‡C3 fits that bill. play test it a few times & tell me if u think it's too slow.
July 23, 2013 3:16 p.m.
DeletedNow4ever says... #49
I'm starting to hate these budget threads (you can say it isn't a budget thread, but you'd only be lying to yourself). I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that if Arena was better, the pros who have been doing amazing with B/G/x would be playing it. I'm pretty sure they know what they are doing. Also, just read Barandis's answer about the curve. He explained it perfectly.
I play B/G/R(Jund colors) in modern, my deck was around $300 to build. I can beat the pants off of Jund and Bob, and....gasp it isn't a budget build. I play Living End in paper and on MTGO. It is such a fun deck to play, and my go to deck in modern. No Bobs, no Goyfs, no Lillys...You should find a deck that fits your play style, if that deck is jund then be prepared to shell out 1k. Finding the right deck shouldn't be about cost, trust me...you're going to spend a lot more money building three or four ''budget'' decks (which you will...because you'll keep losing) and finally going to a deck that can actually be a contender.
October 23, 2013 10:13 a.m.
The pros do recognize the power of Arena. That is why G/B/X decks do tend to run 1 in their 75, to bring in the mirror or versus decks where they need more CA.
Bob is better though cause overall, you lose about the same life. He is a 2/1 body so if you lose 1 life, he can swing in for 2 to even things up. He holds swords when relevant. He dies when you need him to die.
I must admit, I'm picking up a playset of Bobs atm, all new art for my cube and my next deck project which is gonna be jund or bug.
Narwek says... #2
Dark Confidant , sorry
July 15, 2013 12:16 p.m.