Why hasn't Mardu found a home in modern?
Modern forum
Posted on July 1, 2017, 7:13 p.m. by Will361405
I feel like it should have found a home by now, with Young Pyromancer and Lingering Souls in a deck it seems sweet, plus k command and the trio of Fatal Push Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt it should have a home plus Dark Confidant for card advantage, why hasn't mardu found a home yet in modern?
Will361405 says... #3
I just see so many similarities between this deck and jund or abzan, I feel like it could see play I was just wondering if I was missing a reason why it isn't seeing any play currently
July 1, 2017 7:25 p.m.
Infinimage007 says... #5
Mardu lacks a reliable, strong threat like Tarmogoyf. Either you go tokens and go wide, or you play a much more controlling style with higher top end threats.
July 1, 2017 11:55 p.m.
Will361405,
I'm with Infinimage007 on why. A T2 2/1 Young Pyromancer can't remotely compete with a T2 4/5 Goyf.
That said, Selfeisek has put up some good results on MTGO. If I was gonna try Mardu, I'd probably start there.
July 2, 2017 12:43 a.m. Edited.
VampireArmy says... #7
As a long time modern brewer of Mardu in modern. (like since we still called it Dega) It's because Jund is a strictly better midrange deck and Abzan is a strictly better Aggro deck and Jeskai was / Grixis is a strictly better control deck.
July 2, 2017 1:18 a.m.
My friend has had a lot of success play a Mardu Nahiri style control deck. It just plays tons of 1for1 or 2for1 removal and eventually gets to Nahiri/Emrakul
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/27-06-17-mardu-nahiri/
July 2, 2017 11:49 a.m.
Will361405,
Forgot to mention earlier, but you may be interested in a very similar thread that came up over on r/ModernMagic the other day.
VampireArmy
Since Dega, huh? That's AWESOME, mate! Tip o' the hat to you.
Everyone,
Just in case you weren't already aware: Though it's certainly not the most active subreddit ever, y'all might find r/MarduMTG of interest.
July 2, 2017 9:54 p.m. Edited.
Mardu is lacking in reliable win conditions - Young Pyromancer is fragile, Nahiri, the Harbinger is slow, and there's a bit too much removal flying around for Butcher of the Horde to make a dent. If anything ever surges up to patch that weakness, you'll see more Mardu flying around.
July 2, 2017 11:10 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #11
clayperce i mean not literally dega but probably around innistrad 1.0. Pre khans at least :P my deck never really went anywhere and I've since stopped brewing it but it was a fun time trying.
Honestly without goyf or a super solid 2 drop with little to no drawback or a super efficient manland, the archetype is pretty much stuck in non tier land. I think nahiri and maybe even the gideon emperion builds are the closest to competitive so far but there's no real compelling reason to play those over your traditional grixis or jund decks.
July 3, 2017 12:58 a.m.
InnerFlame says... #12
Recently, I've actually been wondering the same thing and have been messing around with it a lot. Pretty much, the deck as a whole is just fragile when it comes to consistency. rothgar13 came pretty close to summing it up. Where mardu would likely take over is close to the void that Junk and Jund play where it's a midrange deck that can fill that aggro role too with tokens. Don't buy into the "pyromancer is too weak" argument though. With Path to Exile, Fatal Push, k-command, Lightning Bolt, al lthe counter spells, and all the other removal spells, everything in modern is too fragile and can be removed. Besides that, decks like affnity, hatebear, creature toolbax, old twin, anyhthing that runs bob, and more have been putting up numbers with weak fragile creatures for years. Even a lot of creatures Junk and Jund run start out small. Even the goyf argument I don't buy. In black alone you have the likes of Tasigur, the Golden Fang, which sure, he probably won't be going down on turn two...but technically he could. And he'd still be a nasty drop the next turn. Besides, you got plenty of removal and tokens. Outside of him you're looking at Death's Shadow, Bedlam Reveler, maybe even Pack Rat. And for one more mana (maybe off of a simian), you got Brimaz, King of Oreskos. The power level is there. The problem is consistency. You don't always have that two drop. You don't always have that removal because or ramp to creature tokens because you have too many 1 for 1s. You cant always protect your life total and when it goes down too far you could be sunk. What Junk and Jund do very well is that when they fault, they can make up for it consistently. And a lot of that is due to green. Say all their threats got blown up or their life is low from Dark Confidant, Scavenging Ooze, Kitchen Finks, or Siege Rhino are on it. And you need the confidant if you have so many 1 for 1s. Blue combo decks getting you down? Abrupt Decay. Wrath spells clearing your board? Gavony Township. Just not getting enough out of your token generators and not putting enough pressure on your opponent? Huntmaster of the Fells. Just looking at that you're already off to a bad start. But what about mardu compared to junk? Well, if you're rolling with the tokens, Maelstrom Pulse might be a bad day against you. I think the deck would be better if it could fit Dark Confidant and Liliana of the Veil in the deck, but right now it's just a little awkward as well.
Green just pushes the deck over the top a little against a lot of different matchups. But there is hope; cards like Bitterblossom, Intangible Virtue, and Timely Reinforcements could help push a deck to form going forward. Right now there just seems to be too many things vying for power in the deck and it can't make up for where it fails. Like BrandonJamesCAC pointed out with the lack of green cantrips.
I see two things happening in the very near future. Either mardu is going to gain a few subtle cards and put it all together in the next few years, or naya is going to put it all together. Junk and Jund have fallen out of favor. Right now, the meta is just too aggressive for the decks. Decks like shadow, affinity, and tron are consistently outpacing the deck as well as a rise in combo decks that they're finding hard to deal with. Red is packed with the aggressive power decks need as long as versatile removal like Lightning Bolt that can hit life. White is packed with all the great sideboard/hate cards as well as removal. So those colors are probably there to stay. Naya is more primed right now to make a reappearance than mardu because of the said points. Also right on par with mardu, don't count out Esper. Mardu struggles with consistency, esper struggles with power. And Naya struggles with dumping their hand.
July 4, 2017 11:56 a.m.
Should Stoneforge Mystic ever be released into modern (I can dream...), watch for Mardu's numbers to skyrocket, at least for a while. Either Stoneforge Mardu would then prove itself, or Stoneforge Abzan/Esper would out-perform and relegate it back to fringe. While a 'Goyf with a sword is far scarier than a soul token or young pyro with a sword, and blues ability to draw and select cards will always find Misty better than RWB can, there is a lot of appeal to T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Stoneforge Mystic, T3 Batterskull, T4 Nahiri, the Harbinger. Only an unbanning will tell, until then Mardu is completely playable, but true spikes can do better things with $1500.
July 5, 2017 3:11 a.m.
cplvela0811 says... #14
Mardu's game 1 may only "target creatures & cause hand disruption." Have you ever noticed that against Jund or Grixis Delver - they loose? The reason for this is that they only run about 12 creatures and Mardu damn near plays all removal. However, against decks like Tron, and combo are harder because of no versatility - outside of destroy target creature. We cannot rely on 1x of Dreadbore or Anguished Unmaking to consistently beat non-linear decks.
Path to Exile Is great, but it now ramps EldraziTron with the inclusion of Wastes. With Death's Shadow (12% Meta) based decks - using delve and Tron (11% Meta) having larger converted mana cost spells and creatures; Lightning Bolt & Fatal Push become incrementally weaker in the current competitive meta.
Without "catch all" cards like Maelstrom Pulse/Abrupt Decay or Mana Leak - if the threat enters play...Mardu tends to loose. Discard is great, but more importantly acts as a preventive measure, as opposed to an answer.
The threats that Mardu offers are Tokens (Lingering Souls, Young Pyromancer, Bitterblossom and so on) and Gurmag Angler. Dark Confidant is an attacking "enchantment." There are, of course the the flavorful who include awesome cards like Olivia Voldaren, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, and or Demigod of Revenge.
Game 2, though, however, has insane potential, due to all of the aggressive sideboard hate. On the one hand Mardu is awesome against extremely fair decks. It just does not have versatility at the moment.
Mardu is waiting, for it's own bomb. It is coming.
July 7, 2017 2:17 p.m.
cplvela0811 says... #15
I used "they", as in /x & Delver - eventually fold to excess spot removal decks, like Mardu. Creature removal decks run 7 + removal spells and fair decks win, by beat down (usually), so taking out their 7-12 creatures - highly lowers their probability of drawing into another win condition. These decks win, by life total deduction.
I feel Mardu needs to start around here - not a dedicated token deck, that looses to cards like Engineered Explosives & Maelstrom Pulse.
I'll probably get lit up, for my opinion, but here's a rough draft of what I have been brewing up.
Demrakul
Modern
SCORE: 36 | 22 COMMENTS | 2320 VIEWS | IN 10 FOLDERS
July 8, 2017 1 p.m.
So in response to bullshit like:
"Without "catch all" cards like Maelstrom Pulse/Abrupt Decay or Mana Leak - if the threat enters play...Mardu tends to loose."
"Mardu lacks a reliable, strong threat like Tarmogoyf. Either you go tokens and go wide, or you play a much more controlling style with higher top end threats."
I would be glad to present some cards that were printed AFTER the old Innistrad block
Anguished Unmaking & Utter End are as universal, as removal can get.
Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion
do provide a beater that is always bigger than goys (8/8 > 7/8).
Yes it comes down later, but its not such a great problem, when your life total can't change. It also dodges a LOT of removal, from the top of my head its only hit by 3 cards that are more or less common in modern Path to Exile, Murderous Cut & Maelstrom Pulse.
(P.s.: drawing it off bob is only a problem if you don't have one in play, and you can easily run this 8 mana monster as a 2 of)
Lets also not forget that whit provides the strongest hate in the sideboard Rest in Peace; Leyline of Sanctity; Stony Silence.
The colors have fewer problems than most people think but they are not insignificant:1# Its not established - thus fewer people play it, because the wise spikes have tunnel vision - and the colors are at their best at midrange, thus there is no meta where this deck would beat the most popular deck, thus goldfishing victory.
2# It misses some modern "staples" that must be included in every deck - according to some people's thinking - Snapcaster Mage; Tarmogoyf
3# It has stuff that costs 4 cmc! and without "delve"! That is heresy.
As everyone knows modern games always end before T4, thus this deck auto loses to everything, as its too slow.
August 16, 2017 8:32 a.m.
@Xica: That kind of misses the point. Tarmogoyf and Snapcaster Mage aren't included just because they're staples. They're staples because they're powerful cards, thus a deck needs a good reason to not play them when the deck is in those colors.
Tarmogoyf rewards you for just playing Magic. You fetch up a land and cast Inquisition of Kozilek. You now have a 3/4 that just grows larger the longer the game goes on. The only thing you had to do was do what you'd normally do.
Snapcaster Mage is just a Swiss Army knife. He can be Ashcoat Bear or Anarchist. He's blue. His effect is an ETB which opens up a lot of room to use bounce spells. If you're a blue deck with lots of instants and sorceries, you have to have a specific reason not to play him.
Tarmogoyf isn't something you play in Collected Company because your deck is basically creatures and lands, meaning he never grows beyond a 2/3. Nor is it something you play in Tron, because by the time you can play Tarmogoyf, you're a turn away from casting Wurmcoil Engine.
Snapcaster Mage isn't something you play in Storm because you're already playing Past in Flames or Noxious Revival. By the time you can flash something back with Snapcaster Mage, you could have just won with Past in Flames.
So despite being format staples and incredibly powerful cards, there are definitely reasons not to play either one. There's also high-tier decks that don't play either one.
The issue with Mardu is that it needs something that rewards you for just playing Magic, is versatile, or generates a bunch of value on its own. Young Pyromancer comes really close. In fact, I'd say it's on the same power level as Snapcaster Mage. The problem is Modern doesn't have all of the high-value, low casting cost instants/sorceries that Legacy has (like Hymn to Tourach or Swords to Plowshares). Nor does Modern have all the fast mana of Vintage so you can cast more expensive spells the same turn you play Young Pyromancer (such as going turn 2 Young Pyromancer -> Mox Sapphire -> Mox Pearl -> Gush -> Time Walk).
Mardu really needs something like Stoneforge Mystic that generates a ton of value immediately, but unbanning it will just mean Abzan is still the stronger deck.
I think what Mardu really needs and could actually be fine for Modern is Goblin Bombardment. Not only do you get to ping your opponent to death with Gravecrawlers and Bloodghasts, you get to do dumb things with Tidehollow Sculler and Fiend Hunter.
August 17, 2017 5:27 p.m.
TheAlexGnan, sylvannos
As you guys said it never shown up in numbers in modern.
And 1 person doing well with the deck would not change the viewpoint of the spikes like you, if the reporting about lantern control dominated GP are anything to go by.
(It was constantly shit on during the live show, even in the top 8, until it came into the top 2)
2 years ago i would have agreed that going deep in mardu (not just splashing a third color for hate) is not viable in modern.
New cards have been printed since then.
Mardu has Madcap Experiment going for it, which may not look that good on the surface (with Platinum Emperion), but at worst it provides a hard to remove beater.
And at the moment everyone is focusing on the leanest answers, like Fatal Push, Lightning Bolt...etc.
Not to mention the fact that some high tier deck like burn or affinity get wrecked from the mainboard thanks to it.
P.s.: No i am not going to hone out mardu midrange, or anything like that thank you. I have my own ideas to tinker with.
But i can hardly stand the bullshit that shortsightedness, and - apparently - ignorance of newer sets produces.
August 18, 2017 3:22 p.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #19
Yeah for real, we don't need a flame war over something empirical.
But I'll revert back to the first point I made about green and blue.
White / Red / Black are packed with vacuum power cards. They even have some decent card draw/cantrips
BUT what they don't have are:
All comes down to the 1 mana cantrips.
August 19, 2017 1:06 a.m.
BrandonJamesCAC says... #20
And the whole argument about
Is an apples to oranges comparison.
I love both of those cards and use them in a pure Esper control deck.
Were talking Modern. And modern right now, is changing.
While it's (NOT BAN WORTHY) is forcing people to be creative and get off this bullshit linear train of boredom.
But i digress: one mana green Ponder and Fatal Push are in and need to be dealth with it.
Hence the rise in Chalice of the Void
August 19, 2017 1:13 a.m.
InnerFlame says... #22
Hey guys, sorry I haven't been responding too well, I kind of wanted to see how this all played out.
One of the guys at my shop and I worked out a list that revolved around disruption and burn. The trick was to create a deck that provided cheap spells, that got the most use by creating one for twos. The most important piece of the deck seemed to be Dark Confidant. Then you ran cards that you would usually see in burn like bolt and helix and spike. The. You used you're disruption that you'd normally have like sieze and inquisition. Then you got juicy with k-command and Timely Reinforcements. Finally to round off the creatures you had cards like swiftspear and pyromancer with questions of m-mentor and that guy that burns for activations. Possibly even a tasigur or two.
August 19, 2017 4:16 p.m.
Thanks, it sounds interesting and a bit different from what i imagined.
August 19, 2017 4:57 p.m.
@InnerFlame: Have you also messed around with Abbot of Keral Keep? That was something I liked having a lot when I was messing around with Mardu Midrange.
I wouldn't play Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Go for Blood Baron of Vizkopa. Far more "oomph!" and a stronger finisher. He's even more spooky when you're already playing Lightning Helix and Timely Reinforcements.
August 19, 2017 6:27 p.m.
InnerFlame says... #26
The idea behind tasigur is that you can cast him for one potentially on turn two or three with ease. Plus, you really won't run too many lands. Somewhere around 18 or 19 lands probably. So you might not even get to cast baron.
August 20, 2017 2:30 p.m.
InnerFlame says... #27
Plus, like said previously, you want to get the most out of a spell with this deck and tasigur will let you get your spells back.
August 20, 2017 2:31 p.m.
InnerFlame says... #28
Strike the last comment haha. The first remains the big part of it.
August 20, 2017 2:39 p.m.
I've messed with a list with 24 lands and Madcap Experiment to find Platinum Emperion and now i'm wondering if it deserves those five total slots. Maybe something like Ajani Vengeant or Elspeth, Sun's Champion is simply better.
August 20, 2017 3:06 p.m.
cplvela0811 says... #30
I see exactly where you are going. I too have considered a graveyard based shell, comprised around Young Pyromancer, Faithless Looting, Lingering Souls, Gurmag Angler (in lieu of Tas), and the removal based on meta. Fatal Push, Path to Exile, Thoughtseize, and the like included. I have seen people use Bedlam Reveler instead of delve creatures. It is an interesting concept.
August 20, 2017 3:11 p.m.
InnerFlame says... #31
The only thing I'll say about tasigur, and madcap and emperion, gurmag, or the reveled, is that I found Dark Confidant really pushed he deck over and made it. I personally like the cheap burn and disruption build I mentioned previously. A tasigur or two was a possibly a misfit but the idea of the fracked still stands. Be vey aggressive with burn and disruption and get spells that give you more than one effect like k-command, brutality, Timely Reinforcements. I like that archer that burns 1 for every spell played too maybe.
August 20, 2017 3:21 p.m.
My shell was almost the same, but as i said, with the Madcap strategy. I'm also thinking about a token-centered list, since a lot of RWB's value-generators make tokens or can abuse it. But as of now, it looks like BW token, but with Faithless Looting and Young Pyromancer. Not enough satisfying.
August 20, 2017 3:31 p.m.
Sorry, i'm way too pushy, but i found this Modern Mardu Control and it has a concept similar to what i had in mind.
August 20, 2017 4:33 p.m.
InnerFlame says... #34
Oh no you're fine! I don't think it's pushy at all! I like the list though! I just prefer more discard.
August 20, 2017 5:09 p.m.
Yeah, i agree. I would probably play three, four IOK, two Thoughtseizes and two Collective Brutality. Now the problem is that Mardu has so many good cards, that i would play the 4x of everything.
IlGuale says... #2
I Think that this discussion can be extended to Tokens deck in general. They should be great in a meta warped by Death Shadow Grixis, but they simply are not.
July 1, 2017 7:20 p.m.