Why isn't EDH's The Gitrog Monster infinite combo implemented as a deck archtype in Modern?
Modern forum
Posted on March 27, 2019, 11:40 p.m. by StopShot
For those who are not familiar with this combo it goes something like this: (Otherwise skip to the second paragraph if you know how this works.)
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All you need is The Gitrog Monster and a card like Noose Constrictor on the battlefield with the card Dakmor Salvage in hand. (Note: it doesn't need to be Noose Constrictor as Lotleth Troll , Olivia's Dragoon , Oblivion Crown , or any other free discard outlet will work for this.) By discarding Dakmor Salvage to the Noose Constrictor , The Gitrog Monster will trigger allowing you to draw a card for having a land enter your graveyard, however; you can then replace that draw trigger with the same Dakmor Salvage you discarded to dredge it back into your hand. Essentially through continuous dredges you'll put more lands into your graveyard from your library allowing you to draw extra cards into your hand. In your deck you'll also have either an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn , Kozilek, Butcher of Truth , Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre , or Gaea's Blessing to eventually mill into your graveyard. This will allow you to shuffle your graveyard into your deck an infinitely repeatable number of times until you can draw all the cards in your deck for free due to stacking draw triggers. At this point you can probably utilize any win condition of your choice such as exiling multiple Simian Spirit Guide 's to cast Conflagrate or Lightning Storm for lethal.
While 5 mana is a big asking price for the fast Modern environment, Ad Nauseam decks still see some degree of play, whereas this strategy I don't believe sees any. The Gitrog Monster is also very resistant against a lot of common Modern removal such as Lightning Bolt , Lightning Helix , Abrupt Decay , Inquisition of Kozilek , Fatal Push , Dismember , Lightning Axe , Thing in the Ice Flip, and unlike Ad Nauseam decks it also survives against Duress , Collective Brutality , Dispel , Negate , and Spell Pierce . Furthermore if you try to remove the discard outlet or exile their graveyard while the first draw/dredge trigger is on the stack, the Gitrog Monster player may still have the option to discard another land or activate a different draw effect ( Street Wraith , Ghost Quarter ) in response to the removal spell to put another draw/dredge trigger on the stack on top of the removal spell, effectively allowing the Gitrog player to draw out their deck with the removal still on the stack. Lastly, there a lot of tutor/search effects that can make assembling this combo more consistent such as Adventurous Impulse , Oath of Nissa , Grisly Salvage , Sylvan Scrying , Summoner's Pact , Time of Need , Traverse the Ulvenwald , and even Goryo's Vengeance can make pulling off this combo much faster as well as consistently.
Given all the card support in the Modern format why doesn't The Gitrog Monster EDH infinite combo see play in Modern or at least as much play in comparison to Ad Nauseam decks?
@APPLE01DOJ, Devoted Druid and Vizier of Remedies decks however need a third piece in order kill their opponents, yet those decks are present in the meta. What would make that combo different from this one in terms of viability?
March 28, 2019 12:06 a.m.
Makes me think of heartless summoning. The big issue is you need a ramp package and the three card combo which has no effective tutors (CoCo and Chord) http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=14485
March 28, 2019 12:23 a.m.
@Bobbbyyy, 3-card combo and a ramp package does sound like it would interfere too much with card space. Maybe if such a deck existed it would have to ditch the ramp package for a control package just to stall and disrupt long enough to reach turn 5. After all it's a very difficult combo to disrupt if set right which helps give it inevitability, and it already is in golgari colors to boot. You're probably right about its biggest weakness is good search effects, but that aspect seems to be improving the more sets that get introduced into Modern. After all we might see something ground-shaking from Modern Horizons that could help in that regard.
March 28, 2019 12:39 a.m.
If dark ritual were to be printed in modern horizons, then it becomes a viable deck instantly in my eyes.
March 28, 2019 12:55 a.m.
SeekerofSecrets says... #7
I might try brewing around this, there's some strong cantrips like Adventurous Impulse that could assemble the combo relatively easily
March 28, 2019 1:17 a.m.
3 card combo and one card costs 5? Modern you say? the game has been over for a couple turns already.
March 28, 2019 1:48 a.m.
PlatinumOne says... #10
Azdranax: i think its safe to say that Dark Ritual won't be getting reprinted in modern horizons.
you're comparing this combo to Ad Nauseam , but thats not entirely accurate. ad nauseam doesn't require any permanents on the field, and this combo requires at least 2. as soon as your opponent sees one on the field, they'll blow it up on sight
March 28, 2019 1:58 a.m.
Flooremoji says... #11
I think the overall conclusion is it's too expenisve (and fragile) to be teir, but that won't stop everyone! I have seen many people play Modern Girtog lists, I think their just missing 1-2 pieces to break through to the next level, but if they come in in MH, the deck mught become good!
March 28, 2019 2:42 a.m.
@PlatinumOne, You're not wrong about them removing them, but that comes down to the question if your opponent can. While the discard outlet may be the easiest piece to remove it may not always be the first permanent that will be set on the field. As I have noted a lot of common removal is ineffective at dealing with The Gitrog Monster due to its high stats and CMC. The only common instant speed spells that can hit the monster is Path to Exile and Assassin's Trophy . Both Ad Nauseam and The Gitrog Monster die to an early Thoughtseize , but Ad Nauseam is specifically weaker against a wider variety of hand disruption and some of the more prevalent counter magic such as Dispel and Negate . In addition a lot of Ad Nauseam decks run Phyrexian Unlife which can also be removed with Assassin's Trophy just like The Gitrog Monster as well as by Abrupt Decay , and other common enchantment/permanent-removal cards. I wouldn't say Ad Nauseam decks are easily disruptable, but that The Gitrog Monster strategy isn't exactly be a total push over either in comparison.
March 28, 2019 2:47 a.m.
Additionally, this combo suffers from the Four Horseman problem - it is not a loop that is the same every time. The legacy deck four horseman features a similar combo that requires you to a series of repeatable loops, but the outcome is different every time.
This means that you have to demonstrate the loop every time, which is not really possible in a tournament setting. IN casual EDH, people might scoop to that, but if I was your opponent, I would force you to play it out every game to run you out of the clock.
This is not a tournament-viable combo.
March 28, 2019 7:33 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #14
The four horsemen's problem is weirdly separate. Because of the way this list works, dredging a land adds a The Gitrog Monster trigger to the stack. This way, you are changing the game-state, so it isn't the same every time.
It is so unlikely that such a repetitive loop would occur that it would be like saying you can't run Nexus of Fate in a list, because it is technically possible to cast it, not change the board state, and shuffle it to the top so that you draw and recycle the exact same loop.
Four Horsemen often repeated it's cycle, if they had brought back 3 Narcomoebas and hit Emmy a bunch in a row or something with only a 1/4 chance or so to hit the last Narcomoeba.
March 28, 2019 8:44 a.m.
The deck suffers indeed from a similar problem. You can demonstrate a loop because you can't say. I'm gonna do this x times and y is going to happen. You have to play it out and that can take forever.
March 28, 2019 8:56 a.m.
Three card combos are just difficult to make work in modern.
Vizier of Remedies
and
Devoted Druid
are kind of a corner case.
First, I want to make you aware of another three card combo which doesn't work in modern which operates on almost the same level as Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies
: Grand Architect + Pili-Pala
.
On the surface these two combos are pretty similar. You have a creature that generates mana but suffers from summoning sickness, and another creature that breaks the former and lets it produce infinite mana. Both combos feature creatures that cost 3 or less. One combo is in blue, the other in G/W. Both require some third thing to exploit infinite mana to win.
What exactly is the difference maker between these two, where one sees competitive play and the other doesn't?
The first major difference is that Vizier combo is in green. This gives the deck access to
Chord of Calling
and
Collected Company
, both of which can help cheat out combo pieces at instant speed. Pili Pala combo only has access to
Whir of Invention
, and that doesn't even hit
Grand Architect
.
The second difference is synergy.
Vizier of Remedies
on its own can do things such as create an immortal
Kitchen Finks
, which on its own is enough to seriously slow down any aggro deck, and in some cases just stops them cold.
Devoted Druid
is at worst a mana dork that can untap at instant speed to either produce a second mana or block. That means 2 lands +
Devoted Druid
on turn 3 means you're holding up a potential
Collected Company
, or even a
Chord of Calling
for 1 during blockers (2 lands make ,
Devoted Druid
taps for a , takes a -1/-1, taps for a , then chumps). In Pili Pala combo on the other hand...
Grand Architect
can help maybe cheat out a
Myr Superion
, while
Pili-Pala
combines with
Viridian Longbow
to essentially produce an effect that ammounts to : Deal 1 damage. That's about the extent of synergy that the pili pala combo deck can obtain.
The third difference is robustity. Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies
is an infinite mana combo, true, but Kitchen Finks + Viscera Seer + Vizier of Remedies
is still infinite life, and essentially lets you rig your next draw. You have fall-back combos, all of the pieces of which being fetchable by the same means that the primary combo can be fetched. Pili Pala combo has no such luxury.
The point that I'm trying to demonstrate here is that to be an A + B + C deck in modern, you need tons of synergy, robustity, ways to find your combo, and you probably want to be in Green. Each combo piece still needs to be good on its own. Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies
is a deck which has all these things. Grand Architect + Pili-Pala
is a deck which does not. Which side of the fence do you think this Gitrog combo falls on?
Can it go off turn 3? Can it win consistently by turn 5, even through disruption? Does it have a secondary game plan to fall back on if the primary combo fails?
I'm not saying that the answer to any of these question has to be "NO" for the Gitrog deck. Indeed, you may be able to brew up some crazy and powerful new combo deck. Rather, I'm just trying to lay the foundation for the absolute necessities of an A + B + C combo deck in modern.
Good luck brewing, but always remember: your combo deck is only as strong as your weakest combo component. Hope this helps.
March 28, 2019 7:33 p.m.
@Boza, Can you explain in greater legality as to why this combo wouldn't be allowed in tournaments? One of my friends plays this combo in my competitive EDH group and says that his deck wouldn't run into any problems in the tournament setting using the combo I described. As he puts it he said it had something to do with the outcome always being deterministic which is what sets it apart from Four-Horsemen, and he said the combo wouldn't be deterministic if he had to use his discard phase as the discard outlet instead. Even so he argues that if he gets hit with slow play it wouldn't be so much of a big deal when playing in tournaments. I'm paraphrasing him largely, because he talks about the legality of this matter with some pretty complex jargon and rule-specific quotations that no one in my group is knowledgeable enough to question him over this gray area. I've tried to do research on it myself, but it always has seemed too ambiguous for me to comprehend and I'd really like to know more rather than take his word for it all the time. Thanks.
March 29, 2019 12:08 a.m.
PlatinumOne says... #18
StopShot: "deterministic" doesn't really apply here. i'm guessing your friend is using it very loosely, but it still doesn't work. i'm also really curious as to the reasoning of his statement that having a judge called for slow play "isn't a big deal".
in the end, this combo would usually result in a judge being called for slow play because, as stated before, the outcome of each repitition of the loop is random and there is a chance that nothing will happen.
March 29, 2019 12:28 a.m.
@PlatinumOne What are the repercussions for getting called out for slow play? I'm familiar when it comes to most card rulings, but not tournament penalty rulings. Does it mean using The Gitrog Monster combo in a tournament would end up as disqualification for the combo-player, or does it strictly depend on if they can reach the end of the combo in a certain duration of time? I'd like to police my friend on this, because if this is a strategy that wouldn't be allowed or restricted in a tournament I'd like to not tune my decks against something I'll never see. My friend is also a very by-the-book type of person, so he's likely going to staunchly disagree with me on what gets said here unless I provide official written rulings on this subject backing up my claims.
March 29, 2019 1:22 a.m.
PlatinumOne says... #20
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/practical-approach-slow-play-2007-09-24
http://www.wizards.com/dci/judge/main.asp?x=judge/MTG_DCI_Judge_Penalty
March 29, 2019 2:47 a.m.
Four horseman required a very specific order of cards to be milled b4 the shuffle effect. This combo does not require anything to be milled in any specific order. You just keep milling until you draw your deck. That is what makes the deck deterministic. You will put your deck into your hand in every game I play. Four horseman could never demonstrate that you will hit this order of cards every time, or even that you will. I can show you putting my deck into my hand every game.
March 29, 2019 4:10 a.m.
Now, while this is far from four horsemen levels, it also not a simple Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies combo - people will be confused.
I originally thought you do not know how many times you have to repeat to get your deck in your hand, but it is easy - it is always equal to number of cards in your graveyard + those in your library.
So there is a set number of times, but you have to still explain this carefully and I am still not 100% sure you can shortcut to having your entire deck in your hand.
In short, check with a judge whether this is acceptable.
March 29, 2019 5:09 a.m.
As for the original question, you are a deck that gets hated out in a lot of ways. The deck is not faster than dredge, which means you are a worst graveyard deck, and slower than the premier combo deck of amulet titan. Ad Nauseam decks have very much fallen out of favor because they are not fast enough. This deck is slower than that in modern, and faces more hate than Ad Nauseam. In commander, you aren’t looking for three pieces. One piece is always at the beginning of the game, in a zone that makes it never a dead card. You get the best tutors, with all the fast mana, and don’t have a sideboard game to deal with. This deck won’t catch on in modern until the premier graveyard deck becomes slower, or this gets faster than Ad Nauseam.
March 29, 2019 5:14 a.m.
I dont see how you get a set number of times so you could demonstrate a loop to be honest. If this is indeed the case though then there wouldn't be a slow play problem.
The combo is still not good enough as was stated before.
March 29, 2019 9:55 a.m.
After thinking about it even more, there may be for this combo to fail:
Lets say, after your latest dradge, you have two cards left in the deck - a Lightning Storm (your wincon) and the eldrazi that reshuffles your deck. How do you draw the wincon 100% in that case? I am sorry for being persistant on this, but this combo is just confusing to me and I want to understand it.
March 29, 2019 11:01 a.m.
Yeah that's not really the problem
The problem is that a dredge can give you 0-2 cards which means you can't short cut it and have to play it out.
March 29, 2019 11:57 a.m.
Likewise, if you draw the shuffle eldrazi and still have a deck to draw, you discard the eldrazi. If you have exactly two cards left, the win con and an eldrazi, you should have at least two lands in hand. Discard both lands, Gitrog triggers two times, draw two cards.
March 29, 2019 12:01 p.m.
0 or 1 land, one dredge can't give you two cards, sorry for that
March 29, 2019 12:07 p.m.
lukas96 i don’t get what you are saying. When people activate Duskwatch Recruiter Flipand reveal zero creatures, but have infinite mana, does that mean they still have to “play it out”? As long as you have the combo and any other land, your deck gets put into hand. If you don’t trust me, go home and try it out. The deck gets put into hand every game, which means you can shortcut it.
March 29, 2019 12:13 p.m.
But if you have to discard lands from the hand to finish the loop, as per the example I gave, it means your doing something besides looping the same thing. You have to deviate.
Compare that to Duskwatch Recruiter Flip, which does not require any other actions besides activating its ability over and over (given unlimited mana).
Loops that can be shortcut are loops that get you from point A to point B, without doing anything else. There seem to be cases in the Gitrog combo, where that is not the case. If it is so, even though there is no way to "fail", there should not be a way to shortcut it.
March 29, 2019 12:32 p.m.
They have infinite mana, Recruiter looks at three cards. You can calculate pretty easy how often you have to activate him to get a ballista.
You can't do that with this combo because a dredge isn't guaranteed to draw you a card. So you can't calculate how often you need to discard and dredge salvage to have your deck in your hand.
This doesn't allow you to shortcut. Shortcuts are described in rule 720 in the comprehensive rules if you want to check that
March 29, 2019 12:37 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #33
lukas96 all you have to do is simple. You can mill your deck into your yard if it is an even number of cards, or until 1 card if it is odd, even the shufflers, as long as you discard/dredge salvage in response. Memorize the number of lands in your deck, and look to see how many are in hand/on the field, and you know the number of draws that stack.
If you repeat the process of milling yourself over until you have more draws than cards in deck, you just draw the deck, then discard Kozi in response to and after every single draw, so you never deck. Now you have a perfectly stacked hand and deck with loops.
March 29, 2019 12:41 p.m.
How many cards do you have in your hand when you did that?
March 29, 2019 12:45 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #35
All of them? At the end you draw your deck. That is the point.
March 29, 2019 12:49 p.m.
You have 5 lands in play 5 in your hand (including a salvage) how many times do you need to discard+dredge to draw your e tire deck if you still have 40 cards in your deck?
March 29, 2019 12:50 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #39
Mill over the deck 4 times stacking triggers. You'll hit 10 lands each go-through, and so by the end you draw 40 cards after shuffling your deck uup to 40 again. Done. You drew your deck through 4 loops.
March 29, 2019 1:19 p.m.
Why do you hit 10 lands?
You can hit 0, 1 or 2 per dredge. There is no guarantee that you hit 10
March 29, 2019 1:29 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #41
Fair, I was mistaken.
Here is a revised loop:
Mill over your deck infinite times shuffling in only after milling the whole thing, putting 5-10 draw triggers on the stack. Shuffle it all in, then rinse repeat 8 times, each additional draw over the 40, discard the Kozi in response.
March 29, 2019 1:34 p.m.
You have to give a specific number. Infinite is not a number.
If you milled your entire deck and the draw trigger resolves before the shuffle trigger your dead. You can't guarantee that this doesn't happen.
March 29, 2019 1:40 p.m.
40 cards total, that means you need to put 40 draw triggers on the stack to draw out your deck right? You discard Dakmor Salvage using Noose Constrictor create a draw trigger from The Gitrog Monster , instead of drawing you dredge 2, meaning you put two cards from the top of your library too put back Dakmor Salvage into your hand. You hit a land from the dredge, putting a draw trigger on the stack. Instead of drawing that card, you respond to the trigger, discarding Dakmor Salvage again, creating a draw trigger, which you put salvage into hand, dredge 2, this time however you whiff. You do this 20 more times because you have 40 cards in library, eventually hitting an eldrazi shuffle titan, and you create thirteen draw triggers. At the end, you let the eldrazi shuffle trigger resolve, shuffle all 40 cards, and repeat. You mill your whole deck again, this time however you create 14 draw triggers, for a total of 27 draws.You do it again. This time you create 9 triggers. Now you are at 36. You do it again, now creating 15 draw triggers, for a total of 51 draw triggers. Now you resolve the draw triggers. You draw out 40 cards. At draw 41, you discard the shuffle titan. You shuffle, and draw the titan. Draw 42, you discard the titan. You now don’t draw out your deck. Now, you are saying because I have variance between how many draw triggers I put on the stack when I mill out my deck each time, you want me to play it out right? Ok, I played it out. Took me less than ten minutes. The combo is fine.
March 29, 2019 1:41 p.m.
That was the whole point. I know that the combo is possible. The point was that you can't demonstate a loop and have to play it out. Exactly.
Second su rise was banned by the way for this exact same reason. Not that this is relevant, but it's a nice additional Information to have.
March 29, 2019 1:53 p.m.
No, that is wrong. Second Sunrise isn’t deterministic. KCI is not deterministic. You have a fail rate. As a result, you have to play it out. This combo never fails. Second sunrise was also banned because it was good in modern. Same with KCI. This combo would not be banned bc it takes less than ten minutes to play.
March 29, 2019 2:05 p.m.
Kci is deterministic. You can demonstrate a loop. So that's wrong.
Second run rise wasst to strong. It was banned because it took to long to execute the combo. It's also not determi istic that's true, but that doesn't change the reason why it was banned.
Don't pull numbers out of your ass. You don't have a clue how long it takes to execute the combo and you don't have a clue how much time is considered to be OK for a combo.
March 29, 2019 2:12 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #47
I don't either, just tryna help. Sorry lukas96 if I can't explain myself well, or if I am incorrect. Frogger is the one deck which I can't explain combowise.
You know there is a line for it using infinite cleanup-steps?
March 29, 2019 2:14 p.m.
It is clear I can’t convince you. That is a shame. I believe there is nothing wrong with the combo. Assuming I am right, and there is nothing wrong with it, it still can’t be ported into modern because it is too slow. There are factors in commander that allow it to thrive. Best tutors, a command zone, fast mana and not having to face extra hate in a second game. Between the fastest graveyard deck being faster than this combo, and other combo decks being faster, it will not see play in modern.
March 29, 2019 2:30 p.m.
Don't either what?
I know the infinite cleanup thing I'm not sure what it does to help in this scenario though.
March 29, 2019 2:37 p.m.
With the infinite cleanup line you could win via lightning storm + discarding 6 lands.
That's pretty much a different deck because you don't need salvage and a discard outlet but wouldn't have any looping problems
APPLE01DOJ says... #2
I think the fact that it's a 3 card combo greatly holds it back.
March 27, 2019 11:54 p.m.