Why no Heartless Summoning?
Modern forum
Posted on March 26, 2015, 5:44 p.m. by FAMOUSWATERMELON
Why is the Heartless Summoning combo deck not used? It seems very solid to me and looks like it could compete fine with other decks in the meta.
In case you're wondering about the combo, it utilizes Heartless Summoning + Myr Retriever + Myr Retriever or Havengul Lich + Heartless Summoning + Myr Moonvessel for infinite ETB triggers with something like Altar of the Brood or Impact Tremors.
I agree, me and my buddy made this ----> Heartless Retrieval (2nd Turn Win) It's fairly consistent, fun and interactive.
March 26, 2015 5:50 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #4
Slayne Considering that one is in your graveyard, that the other is an enchantment, and that all you need to do is play the third to win, it's actually fairly easy to pull off.
March 26, 2015 5:51 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #5
Low powered. Twin is a more resilient deck and has to play fewer awful cards.
March 26, 2015 5:53 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #6
Ok, fair point GlistenerAgent. Maybe in a Grixis/Dimir control shell?
March 26, 2015 5:54 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #7
Yeah, but at that point you could just be playing Cruel Ultimatum.
Point is, there are better things you could be doing, and even though people play rogue decks from time to time this one can't really stitch wins together and totally lacks resiliency.
March 26, 2015 5:56 p.m.
OtakulordAndrew says... #8
It might be rough but I would be interested in seeing where something like this can go and if enough alternate pieces of the combo could be found to make it viable. There might be more effective decks but that's not to say this couldn't work in modern especially if it caries the surprise of being a rouge deck which can throw an opponent off when playing it as they wouldn't know what to expect.
March 26, 2015 6:12 p.m.
It may be harder to pull off, but imagine the payoff.
The shame your opponent will feel when they are beaten by the MYR RETRIEVER COMBO DECK!?!
So worth it!
March 26, 2015 6:31 p.m.
CrazyLittleGuy says... #10
@OtakulordAndrew Surprise factor does not make a deck good, it simply adds a temporary bit of competitive edge to an already good deck. Plus, for this deck, it only adds one game of surprise factor. Other, better decks can have a great edge in game one and still be reasonable in games two and three. Like Affinity.
March 26, 2015 6:51 p.m.
Monsmtg: Yah, but the thing is, a combo shouldn't make you play bad cards. You should be playing at least mediocre cards that go nuts when you get teh combo.
March 26, 2015 6:52 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #12
People overestimate the odds of drawing a card. I have a deck (not linking it due to forum rules) that uses a 2 card combo with 4+ tutors AND dig effects that doesn't always work out in time. Combo is a b!tch. Unless your deck is still good without the combo its not competitive.
March 26, 2015 6:59 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #13
sergiodelrio Right, which I why I proposed a Grixis/Dimir control shell to hold off assults and draw regularly.
GlistenerAgent Cruel Ultimatum may or may not win you the game. This combo definitely wins you the game.
March 26, 2015 7:01 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #14
I get it. Still, a two card combo is infinitely better than a 3+ card combo. Always. Like, all specifications aside, would you rather have a two card combo in let's say a grixis control shell, or a three card combo? Don't get me wrong, I love everything about Myr Retriever and Heartless Summoning. It's an original combo. But it doesn't add anything to the table when it comes to being competitive. The math is ineffective here in the same way as it is in putting more than 60 cards in your deck.
March 26, 2015 7:09 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #15
sergiodelrio Of course a two card combo is better. I'm not proposing that this deck is tier one comparable with Twin or Junk, maybe tier two. And as I explained earlier, to get the combo off, you need one card in your graveyard (terribly easy in modern), one/two enchantment(s) on the field (not a ton of enchantment destruction in modern, maybe in the side) and one creature that, once you play it, you win.
March 26, 2015 7:13 p.m.
I like the major Johnny appeal. Also there are alternates for some of the combo pieces:
Krark-Clan Ironworks = Heartless Summoning
Grinding Station = Altar of the Brood
Plus Infernal Tutor helps find a second Myr Retriever
People need to be more imaginative.
March 26, 2015 7:13 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #17
It also wastes slots that could be removal spells. If you're playing a combo-control deck, you want to devote the minimum possible slots to your combo to fit in more control tools. Excluding ramp spells (which may or may not count depending on how you look at it), Scapeshift has four wincons, and the rest of the deck lets you shoot past excess ramp and find what you need. Cruel Ultimatum in the Grixis deck gives you a good enough chance to win that you play it over a (probably) 8+ slot combo.
This deck needs like a million bad cards to win the game, so I don't like it in a control shell.
March 26, 2015 7:13 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #18
Also: The more cards you need to be ahead, the more problematic and complicated your whole deck concept will be. Modern is (sadly) not so much about complexity, but more about being super efficient. If you want to get a taste of complicated, try Vintage.
March 26, 2015 7:14 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #19
GlistenerAgent Definitely another valid point.
March 26, 2015 7:14 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #20
I'd probably just build an all-in shell, with the right search elements. Infernal Tutor is certainly very sweet, and Muddle the Mixture could help. Ancient Stirrings is strong, and that lends itself to a BUG list that gets sweet sideboard options.
March 26, 2015 7:16 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #21
To quote Epoch: "Vintage is a bastard of a format." Not trying it anytime soon.
March 26, 2015 7:16 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #23
Vintage is sweet. All the decks have sweet interactions and let you make lots of decisions. Also, Vintage is sweet.
March 26, 2015 7:18 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #24
I have a Heartless Summoning combo deck that I play and run in real life. (Heartless Myrs of the Brood if anyone cares) Anyways, it's a very fun deck and it is rewarding when it does work. However, it is far too reliant on Heartless Summoning to be good otherwise. When your entire deck consists of getting out one card that then lets you put out another three cards in order to win, it is a little too inconsistent. I still have some success with this deck (haven't lost an aggro matchup yet except once against an Affinity deck with perfect draws and against a Bogles deck that got turn 2 Rest in Peace for games 2 and 3.) but it certainly can't compare against anything that runs more than 4 hand disruption/counterspell cards. Without Heartless Summoning, you are left with a really bad Myr Beatdown deck.
March 26, 2015 7:18 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #25
GlistenerAgent Vintage is a format that rarely gets past turns 2-3. Way to fast for me.
March 26, 2015 7:20 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #26
That's not how it is in reality. You're right that it's quite fast, but every player has access to interaction, and thus games will go long if you play properly.
That said, I'm not very good, but I've certainly watched a lot of long games of Vintage.
March 26, 2015 7:22 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #27
GlistenerAgent We talking about the same format? The one where you can use a two-mana extra turn?
March 26, 2015 7:25 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #28
Yeah, it's also the same one where you can play up to eight free counterspells, discard spells, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares.
March 26, 2015 7:26 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #29
Great! So we are talking about the same one. Which is why I don't like it.
March 26, 2015 7:27 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #30
To each their own, I guess. I like casting big spells.
March 26, 2015 7:28 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #31
My Vintage deck is pure jank. Lol that's why I love playing it so much. (It's here on TO, but I shouldn't post it here because "NO DECKLISTS" and plus this isn't a Vintage forum.)
March 26, 2015 7:36 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #32
Right, so back to the subject of this thread...
March 26, 2015 7:37 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #33
Really all that Heartless Summoning needs is copies 5-8 of it that don't have downsides. Semblance Anvil and Krark-Clan Ironworks are cool, but they are also slower and so aren't as efficient. We just need a second thing with the same effect. Or a functional reprint of Myr Retriever
March 26, 2015 7:46 p.m.
Heartless Summoning is a card I've been obsessed with since Innistrad was on Standard. It's a very, VERY underrated card. The thing is, you're not supposed to use it for a combo - as everyone else said, it forces you to play bad cards and either get incredibly lucky with your draws or dedicate 20+ slots in your deck to shitty tutors.
The best way to use it, and the only way I can see it being relevant in competitive Modern, is in a midrange deck. Instead of using it for janky 4-card combos, try playing it as an enabler for big creatures that you can play even without the 
discount. My most successful Heartless Summoning deck is a B/G midrange deck that ramps into stuff like Grave Titan - HS speeds it up considerably, but I don't NEED it to win a game.
March 26, 2015 9:43 p.m.
JexInfinite says... #35
Heartless Summoning combo requires the same amount of cards as Amulet Bloom, and is not nearly as good.
Twin is a 2 card combo, and Scapeshift is a 1 card combo.
There are just better combo decks.
March 27, 2015 1:50 a.m.
I thought that said Savage Summoning this whole time and was very confused.
Slayne says... #2
Did you see the amount of cards you just listed?
Requires 3+ cards and is easily disrupted. That about sums up why it isn't used.
March 26, 2015 5:49 p.m.