Why on earth does Wizards scratch its head wondering why Modern is a small format?
Modern forum
Posted on March 12, 2014, 4:46 p.m. by trentfaris242
I would seriously LOVE to get into Modern.
Unfortunately, I don't have $600+ to drop on lands that all decks need to be viable (save Tron and Affinity).
It seems like every time I work up enough motivation into making a deck, I get shut down by the fact that 4 Misty Rainforest cost over $325.
end rant
Ohthenoises says... #3
You CAN go without by using shocks, checks, and filters. It doesn't slow you down ALL that much.
If you win some events you can get some money together to start buying fetches. For me, I am currently trying to trade up.
March 12, 2014 4:53 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #4
Also, it should be noted that the prices started climbing recently. Yes, fetches were expensive, but they all just got a boost to their price.
I don't think Wizards intended for it to happen. But that's what did. And it isn't their fault.
March 12, 2014 4:56 p.m.
Magiclover318 says... #5
If you wanna get into modern without paying a crap ton of money it's easy. Avoid Simic or Izzet decks, those cost so much because of the dual fetch lands.
I personally am using mono black and yeah it's expensive but atleast I don't have to buy the fetch lands and whatnot.
Listed below is my modern mono black deck for you to check out
March 12, 2014 4:57 p.m.
thataddkid says... #6
They should really reprint fetches once shocks rotate out. The shock fetch interaction is too strong for standard, but basics and fetches is very balanced for a healthy standard.
March 12, 2014 4:57 p.m.
SobbingAcorn says... #7
I agree completely, it frustrates me so much. I don't have a way to earn that kind of money for cards. When I play, I usually play just casual decks. Some cheap rogue decks can be competitive in the modern formats though, search for something like a turbofog deck. I made a decent one for $6, and it can face against some of my richer friends competitive decks. I don't know what kind of decks you like to play, but maybe a u/w turbofog would be fun for you. Good luck.
March 12, 2014 4:59 p.m.
It's less appealing when you see an event like GP richmond this past weekend, and half the matches end on turn four when someone enchants Deceiver Exarch with Splinter Twin .
What's the point of shelling out +$2,000.00 on Obliterator Rock when your gonna lose on turn four anyways?
I'll stick to standard.
March 12, 2014 4:59 p.m.
thataddkid says... #9
If you think that twin wins turn four no matter what, and you're playing G/B, you REALLY need to rethink how you play magic.
March 12, 2014 5:01 p.m.
thataddkid says... #10
Also, it's not just "avoid simic and izzet and it's cheap"! Fetches are run in every deck that can run them competetively because of deck thinning. If you play mono-black, you should be running a set of Marsh Flats and Verdant Catacombs . Fetches are so powerful that anyone who wants a competetive deck has to drop hella cash on 8 cards.
March 12, 2014 5:05 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #11
@Magiclover318, even Arid Mesa is stupidly high now.
I play Standard, and my deck is worth about $550, but I didn't pay half of that to obtain it because Standard cards are so much easier to obtain.
Modern players hoard their cards because they want to price to be driven its making the barrier to entry almost harder than Legacy in some cases. Ironically, I've heard tons of Modern players at my LGS whine that no one plays Modern.
@Ohthenoises, that's probably what I'll wind up doing. But, to be honest, I don't see winning a tournament with, say, a pod deck being possible if I'm running shocks and all the winning decks are running fetches.
March 12, 2014 5:07 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #12
So glad that thataddkid sees the problem and it's not just me. They're integral to the format, so you can't just ignore them. If I'm going to be shelling out $60-100 on each land, I may as well play Legacy.
March 12, 2014 5:08 p.m.
The point was, as someone with zero stock in modern, I'd have to pay some serious coin to even stand a chance, and to then be blown out by something like turbo twin, getting combo'd out on T3, I would probably just quit playing and sell off my collection right then and there, after having invested over $2,ooo.oo for a deck like Obliterator Rock.
If I had stock in modern on hand, and could just throw most of it together, I would take the time to play modern, considering that's not the case, the last thing I would want to do is go out, drop over $2,000.00 just to get blown out on turns 3-4, yea no thanks, I'll stick to standard.
March 12, 2014 5:10 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #14
I know of no one who hoards modern to affect the price. Yes, some people do hold on to cards as trade fodder, but the prices are affected right now because of modern season (creating demand for staples) and the popularity of modern (wizards pushing it).
These skyrocketing card prices aren't intentional, they just happened. In all honesty, if you want to play modern, just wait a little while. I'm thinking that the prices will start declining once modern season is over.
However, I will say this: I'd rather spend $500-$1000 on a modern deck that I can play forever, rather than $500 on a standard deck every rotation.
March 12, 2014 5:17 p.m.
thataddkid says... #15
Removal spells in G/B:
First you talk about combo-ing off on turn 4 every time- if every combo deck could have it's pieces consistently on turn 4 combo decks would be running the format.
Then you talk about it's inevitability. "They'll just win on t4!" Above is a list of playable removal in G/B. White has Path to Exile , Lightning Bolt is in G/B, and blue has a plethora of counters. It is certainly not inevitable that they will combo off and win t4. If you seriously think they automatically win if they untap on t4 you have never played a game of magic.
Oh, also twin isn't the only deck in the format. ;)
March 12, 2014 5:19 p.m.
thataddkid says... #16
The price spikes certainly are unintentional. The problem that trentfaris242 (if I'm correct) has is that wizards pushes modern heavily, but to even get into the format the LANDS are ridonkulous. This can be fixed with a reprint, but as long as wizards totes modern as the new thing they need to have staples be more accessible. I'd say they were looking out for modern lately, with RtR getting shocks and theros getting Thoughtseize , but the fetches need to be reprinted next block if wizards is going to keep pushing modern. It is a bit ridiculous right now, but I wouldn't shake my fist at wizards until they neglect to or do in fact print fetches in Huey, Dewie and Louie.
March 12, 2014 5:24 p.m.
ryuzaki32667 says... #18
One thing to understand is you just can't make a modern or even a legacy deck over night, it takes time e been working on finishing a legacy deck for a year, and my modern have been working for about 5 months, you have to be patient and keep an eye put for good deals. A while back at an open I was able to trade a playset of Boris reckoners for two arid mesa
March 12, 2014 5:27 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #19
@vampirelazarus, so what you're saying is that you know of plenty of people who would trade a Modern staple for an equally valued Standard staple?
Standard is much less expensive, so let's use a relatively accurate example:Snapcaster Mage and Mutavault . These two cards are roughly the same price. I know of no one, literally no one, who would make this trade regardless of the prices being the same because Snapcaster Mage has more potential to rise and less potential to fall.
Call it a financial decision all you want, it cripples entry to the format.
March 12, 2014 5:28 p.m.
Melira Pod and Twin are insanely popular and Affinity, while not technically a combo, can god hand, which to me is the same as a 7 card combo you play on turn 1.
A deck like Obliterator rock is not a combo deck, and can brick on every removal spell before one of those decks can 'combo' out.
March 12, 2014 5:29 p.m.
SobbingAcorn says... #21
We should start a petition for a From the Vault: Modern to have a reprint of all of the staples. It doesn't seem to unreasonable to have some of the staple cards reprinted as thataddkid stated, and would almost certainly boost the number of people who play modern. The prices for some of the cards are fairly insane, especially being that they are just lands. Don't get me wrong, I understand the power of them, they just shouldn't be that expensive.
March 12, 2014 5:29 p.m.
I play both formats, but I do think Modern players (or any non-rotational-format players) oversimplify the situation a lot by saying "I'd rather spend $2000 on a deck I can use forever than $500 on a deck I can use for a year." Here's the thing: you are not going to play that deck forever. Nobody is. Everybody gets bored of a deck and wants a new one. I have to switch decks like every 3 months or I go crazy.
Not to mention the fact that not everybody can just up and drop 2 grand all at once. The reason I still play Standard, despite my general disdain for the format, is it's much much much easier for someone on my budget to spend $25-$50 every month to draft or enter FNM than it is for me to drop 2gs right now and then not for months. Economically, I would be saving money in the latter situation. The issue is I have no way of getting such a huge lump of money all at once. And y'know what? If I did, I would have something better to spend it on.
tl;dr not everyone's economic situation is the shame, sometimes it's easier to make down payments on a car than buy it in cash.
/rant
March 12, 2014 5:30 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #23
I actually do know of someone like that. He plays standard exclusively for the last 15 years.
Every rotation, he will sell his card stock, and reinvest in standard staples.
He also only plays control, for those interested.
March 12, 2014 5:30 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #24
@ryuzaki32667, I have to do this too. In fact, most people do.
The problem with building these decks over time with Modern is that the card prices rise dramatically whereas Legacy prices are more or less set in stone just based on the difficulty to obtain the cards.
Modern isn't solidified enough yet to be able to build a deck over 6 months and spend the same as you would if you bought it straight up. That makes entry difficult. I'm faced with paying ~$1000 now, or risk paying ~$1500 over 6 months.
March 12, 2014 5:31 p.m.
SobbingAcorn: They did that already. It's called Modern Masters bru.
March 12, 2014 5:31 p.m.
trentfaris242 "Why on earth does Wizards scratch its head wondering why Modern is a small format?"
Except it isn't a small format. We literally just saw the largest constructed tournament - only 200 shy of largest period - and the format was in modern. I can't speak for anyone else's LGS, but mine rotates modern/standard and we see usually double the attendance for modern FNM. If anything the issue is that WotC isn't properly prepared for the success of modern.
thataddkid "Fetches are run in every deck that can run them competetively because of deck thinning."
The mathematically effects of thinning have been proven to be dubious. It will take you tons of games of fetching to eventually equate to drawing a spell instead of a land. Most decks however are happy to have a super stable mana base, having adaptable, tricky and utility out of their mana, and having an on demand shuffle effect.
March 12, 2014 5:34 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #27
@Jp3ngu1nb0y And packs are pretty pricey. Nor are they being sold in LGS's.
March 12, 2014 5:34 p.m.
Don't whine.
You can create a modern-viable deck with just 40 dollars. You just have to think outside box and be efficient and mean. If you can't do that, not even the best land or mana-fixers on earth will help.
But yeah... some cards are just stupidly expensive, and I hate that too.
March 12, 2014 5:34 p.m.
thataddkid says... #29
Combo is 38% of the meta according to mtgtop8.com. The problem I have with their list is that they list pod as a combo deck, while it's primary plan is just aggro with threat of combo. Take that away and combo is 26% of the meta. Either number is not dominating the meta.
Also you fail to respond to many of my arguements. You instead nit-pick one small point each time. You still haven't talked about:
Lack of t4 insta-win consistency
Plethora of answers
Necessity of fetches
And SobbingAcorn, Jp3ngu1nb0y is right that wizards did kind of do that. As long as they keep reprinting staples I'll be fine, but if they want to keep modern healthy they need to print at least one staple per product.
March 12, 2014 5:35 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #30
@Slycne, I think you're partially correct. While this past event was one of the biggest hyped ever, I still don't think ~4000 people shows that it's a booming format. I know lots of people who can't afford to play Modern but can afford to play Standard each year.
That said, I think you hit the nail on the head. Wizards did not properly prepare for their pushing of the format.
@Busse, yes. You're right. There are so many viable $40 decks winning tournaments.
March 12, 2014 5:37 p.m.
thataddkid says... #33
And Slycne, no matter what the purpose fetches are certainly a necessity. I said deck-thinning rather than mana-fixing because some people will just say "run mono-color then!".
Busse, go win a GP or PTQ with a 40$ deck, or even build one that can win a match against any deck that top8'd PTBOTG. I would LOVE for that to be possible, but unfortunately any non-fetch deck is severely limited in competetivity.
March 12, 2014 5:39 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #34
I think I should just note this: Pod is listed as a combo deck but it's played like an aggro deck. Technically it's aggro that can combo off for a win.
March 12, 2014 5:40 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #35
@Jp3ngu1nb0y, I agree. I don't even mind some staples being expensive. Tarmogoyf SHOULD be expensive. He's deck dependent. But lands that see play in all decks shouldn't be so expensive. They need a reprint.
March 12, 2014 5:40 p.m.
Melira Pod IS considered a combo deck and therefore the total is %38, damn near %50 if you ask me.
If players regularly scoop to a pod player going infinite life, then it's a combo deck, regardless of the aggro lines held within.
March 12, 2014 5:41 p.m.
I am of the same opinion as vampirelazarus. The "buying new cards every rotation" thing is why I quit playing standard amd went to EDH and casual. My play group builds casual decks out of standard cards, including the lands. But we also have our just for fun decks that can have pretty much have anything in them.
EDH has become my passion where magic is concerned. Due primarily to the fact that, much like modern or legacy, aside from cards getting banned, anything goes. And also while things that are good in other formats are USUALLY good in EDH, there are a lot of things that are good in EDH that aren't good in other formats.
March 12, 2014 5:42 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #38
thataddkid there are several fetchless decks in modern that do quite well.
3 kinds of tron, most mono colored decks like Soul Sisters, Urza's Gifts type decks, etc.
March 12, 2014 5:42 p.m.
Then don't whine, as I said earlier. If you are not willing to pay the stupid amounts of money, don't go into tournaments or just don't build decks that require shock and fetchlands. It as simple as that. (Y)
Peace out.
- Jp3ngu1nb0y By the way, I agree with you man, it's better to invest small amounts and to create and evolve decks, than to spend 2k in just one go, and then you may even get bored if it is perfect from the beginning
March 12, 2014 5:42 p.m.
thataddkid says... #40
What? What 40$ decks are winning tournaments? I've looked at every top deck at every tournament on mtgtop8.com. All but one ran fetches, and that was merfolk that ran 3 Mutavault and 3 Cavern of Souls . There are no cheap decks winning anything.
March 12, 2014 5:43 p.m.
Slycne is right. GP Richmond was the largest GP to date beating out GP Las Vegas which was, ironically enough, Modern Masters Limited. Modern is growing (I myself am currently building Storm) and the while the prices for staples keeps rising they will eventually peter out...or at least I hope so. For our wallets' sake.
March 12, 2014 5:44 p.m.
thataddkid says... #43
"Don't build decks that require fetches"
All decks that can run fetches for a reason. They are essential to EVERY deck but fish.
Ohthenoises, can you link me to one?
Behgz, you again ignore everything I'm saying but one thing. Even if you say pod is combo, the total is 38%. It's not 50% because you say it is. And pod doesn't regularly combo off as long as you run some form of disruption (hint: almost every deck).
March 12, 2014 5:46 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #44
Basically the options for someone who can't shell out $1,000+ who wants to break into Modern are TRON and Affinity. Even Merforlk should be running some fetches. If those decks don't appeal to you then you're kind of out of luck.
March 12, 2014 5:47 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #45
I'll do you one better thataddkid, I'll link you a whole archetype: Here
March 12, 2014 5:48 p.m.
Random number gods Brick away removal like its their job, because it is.
I can say it's %50 if I want, just like you can say it's %25. Doesn't make either correct.
It's %38. Why don't we just agree on that.
March 12, 2014 5:48 p.m.
thataddkid says... #48
Okay, sure. Fetches aren't essential to ONE archetype.
Even then the topic is money being a huge entry barrier because of lands. Let me ask, how much is Grove of the Burnwillows right now?
March 12, 2014 5:49 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #49
I guess the real question trentfaris242 is what type of player are you? I can give you lots of decent, cheap tier 2 (ish) decks that are cheaper.
Control, combo, or aggro?
March 12, 2014 5:50 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #50
thataddkid tron has three different decks that make up "Tron"
Mono U, G/R, and U/w. All three of them require no fetches and the U tron usually edges out the G/R heads up.
Affinity also requires no fetches because they want manlands like Inkmoth Nexus and Blinkmoth Nexus .
trentfaris242 says... #2
I'll add this:
The difference between Modern and Standard is that Standard cards aren't solely currency. You can open packs and draw viable cards, you can trade with friends, or you can purchase them. In Modern, your only option is to purchase them. Even at my LGS (which hosts some successful big tournament players), you can forget about finding a trade for Modern staples. They'd rather just hold them as the value increases or sell them before they drop.
TL;DR - Standard cards are fun to obtain. Modern cards can almost only be bought.
March 12, 2014 4:51 p.m.