im lost
Pioneer forum
Posted on March 2, 2024, 2:08 p.m. by CrimsonMist4204
so i was watching the PT coverage recently and I have not played pioneer or mtg in a while but i was so confused with the interactions I was seeing with sorin and vein ripper. I get that he cheats him out, and if sorin sacs him im assuming it triggers the ripper effect as well to deal 5 and gain 5. What i dont understand is how when lightning axe was cast and the RB vampire player had no other creatures on board how did ripper use is ward effect to stay alive w no other creature was on board? also in the 2nd game of the t8 there was a vein ripper that piloted the chopper,the chopper swang in and JED offers the block with arclight and when the ripper sacs the chopper it deals 4 and he gains 4, the ability to gain ward says 2-2. can someone fill me in because i know im not up to date but ive played MTG for almost 2 decded granted the last several years off and on and after reading both sorin and ripper im completely consfused as to what is goin on here
I haven't seen the match in question, but if I interpret the question correctly, the second match of the Top 8 had a Vein Ripper crewing a Smuggler's Copter, which attacks. Jean-Emmanuel Depraz blocks with Arclight Phoenix. The Smuggler's Copter and Arclight Phoenix trade and die. This triggers the Vein Ripper's life drain ability twice. gaining 4 life for its controller and causing JED to lose 4 life.
If I understand the OP right, the Vein Ripper doesn't cause the Smuggler's Copter to be sacrificed at any time, it simply trades in combat with Arclight Phoenix. The Vein Ripper's life drain ability is not connected to the ward, which Gidgetimer explained well. Since two creatures died in this exchange, the Vein Ripper triggers twice, creating two instances of +2 life/-2 life, for a total of +4 life/-4 life.
March 2, 2024 5:32 p.m.
By the way, welcome to the club, CrimsonMist4204! Let us know if this is what happened in that match.
March 2, 2024 5:33 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #5
CrimsonMist4204 I’m not nearly good enough to help here, but I also wanted to say WELCOME ABOARD!! I’m super-pumped every time I see a new fellow T/O member. Looking forward to more posts!
March 2, 2024 8:03 p.m.
CrimsonMist4204 says... #6
so thanks for the warm welcome and the in-correct formatting lol first time I posted. I was also shall we say enjoying some adult goodies, and though i love MTG i rarely play anymore but when i do its pioneer and modern. everyone answered my questions perfectly, so i was able to deduce the copter-phoenix trade just double triggered the vein ripper it was just throwing me off because of the way the vein ripper played it out but yeah it was just a trade that cause the gain 2 loose 2 effect twice. the ward effect I just had not seen but thanks to Gidetimer that explained it perfectly, I was assuming the controller had to pay the cost but it makes perfect sense that the opponent would have to pay it the way the match played out, and i assume the lightning Axe was just the 3rd spell and pitched an ark light phoenix to be able to bring it back and maybe hope the opponent forgot his trigger. This was the t8 match between Jean Emmanuel (reigning world champ) and seth manfield, and while im not a Big Seth fan i feel like maybe a better line could have been taken because he isnt the calibur of player to forget a trigger. And Jean had another land he played so i feel like there had to be a line where he was able to get another creature on the field to sac to prevent ward but maybe his hand didnt allow it. Spoiler for anyone who didnt watch Seth wins easily off the back of the Sorin/Vein Ripper interaction because the following turn he simply gives it a +1/+1 counter and its out of removal range unless the opponent could 4 for one them selves to play a lightning axe, pitch a card there, sac a creature to ward, and fire off like a fiery impulse. Sad but I havnt watched the finals yet but i know Seth makes it in and looks to have a favorable MU against My Hero Simon Neilson playing the Boros Heroic deck. I play a very similar deck in both pioneer and modern, in fact i just trade out cards depending on the format in my Red/Blue Prowess deck. Currently evaluating if I need to make room for monstrous rage, seems like a VERY good addition to the deck but basically everything in the deck scrys or cantrips to find gas but i think itll probably replace titans strength x2 I currently have and maybe worth cutting 2 more cards as wekk. thanks again for the help!!!!
March 3, 2024 10:43 a.m.
CrimsonMist4204 says... #7
cant figure out how to edit anything besides my original post but i meant to say "sorry for the incorrect formatting.." still waking up. And my biggest comment from this match was that the interaction with Sorin and Vein ripper is well kinda broken, like not kinda broken more like WTF is wrong with them for allowing this broken. Granted you have to draw the 2 cards together (but both are easy 4x in any list like this) but a 3 cost planeswalker w 4 loyalty and ALL good effects that just gets to slam down a what 6 mana creature especially one as ridiculously powerful as vein ripper is boardline insanity to me. And why I refuse to play formats like pioneer or modern without blue in my deck for counter spells (well that and at this point I just play my favorite deck ever in both formats occasionally UR Prowess) but i think an errata might be in order because that is just obsurd to me the interaction there, because if they untap the sorin just gets to plus, bring the ripper to a very hard to kill size and give it life link and lets not forget the ripper is a massive body to protect the sorin to make sure this happens. i guess i dont play enough to be this upset but da*n that is a crazy interaction. 3 mana for a very good planeswalker and a huge 6 cost creature with very strong effects...to bad I dont play black lol.
March 3, 2024 10:55 a.m.
CrimsonMist4204 Yeah, Rakdos Vampires is top tier in Pioneer right now. I don't think the Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord + Vein Ripper is is inherently "too" powerful--it's definitely strong, but you have to have both cards available. Sorin's an engine by itself, but the Ripper probably isn't going to come out by itself. It's only a (very strong) Sorin payoff, and this only works in Vampire decks. Put this in a discard shell or something, and it's a wasted card slot.
But I'm not a Pioneer player, so this is guesswork on my part. Is it reasonable to hardcast Vein Ripper? Can it find a home in other decks?
Gidgetimer says... #2
You can link cards by enclosing their name in double brackets.
The only card that is clearly named in here is Vein Ripper. And from context I'm going to assume that of the 6 Pioneer legal Sorins that you are talking about Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord.
If you use the +1 on Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord with only Vein Ripper out you are correct that sacrificing the Vein Ripper will trigger the "whenever a creature dies" ability causing another drain for 2 on top of the drain for 3 causing a total between the two abilities of 5 points drained.
You seem to be mistaken on how ward works. "Ward- (COST)" means that whenever the creature becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless they pay (COST). It doesn't matter if Vein Ripper's controller doesn't have any other creatures. The spell is countered unless the person targeting Vein Ripper sacrifices a creature.
I can't make out what you are asking about the Top 8 game. I don't know what card you are calling "chopper", how Vein Ripper is sacrificing anything, or what you mean by "the ability to gain ward says 2-2". If you can provide clarification I may be able to help you understand that game as well.
CR reference on how Ward works:
702.21a Ward is a triggered ability. Ward [cost] means “Whenever this permanent becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, counter that spell or ability unless that player pays [cost].”
March 2, 2024 5:04 p.m.