Interaction between Gideon and Yorion
Pioneer forum
Posted on May 23, 2020, 10:47 p.m. by PickleNutz
This is a sample deck that I messed around with and is by no means optimized yet. But the question is does this work, and can it be efficient enough to be competitive.
The idea is bouncing Gideon with cards like Yorion to load The Ozolith with counters, then reapply them to Gideon for ultra fast planeswalker ultimates or heavy swings.
My understanding is Ozolith only see creatures, but Gideon becomes a creature with his 0 ability.
If Gideon is activated as a creature, then bounced, the loyalty counters should transfer to the Ozolith as it doesn’t specify “types” of counters. Upon remembering, because it’s a substitute effect for the counters, Gideon will still have the loyalty he did when he exited and when he attacks as a creature they can be moved from Ozolith to him.
This means getting huge -15 exile effects from Gideon and being able to smash if it is a sound concept.
Can anybody clarify this play and the interactions if I am wrong?
Also, what can be changed to maximize bounce effects.
PickleNutz says... #3
You over complicated the action by a bit, and I think this combo in Azorius control rather than Jeskai would prove to be more efficient. The Gideon interaction can reach ultimate by turn 7 if done correctly, and control pieces can be played up until that can happen. This is about the same clock as Inverter or Eldrazi trick combo decks with more true interaction potential.
Turn 1 mana, Ozolith, no mana free
Turn 2 mana, save counter, Opt, 1 mana free
Turn 3 mana, save counter, 3 mana free for Teferi as well as interactions
Turn 4 mana, hard cast Gideon, 0 mana free, bounce Gideon with Teferi, 8 loyalty
Turn 5 mana, Yorion, bounce Gideon effect, Gideon has 12, 0 mana free
Turn 6 mana, Void Snare on Yorion, repeat interaction with Gideon for 16, 5 available mana free for interaction
Turn 7, Play Another Yorion or Bounce Spell and Gideon is set up to have 20 counters, his ultimate can go off essentially wiping the board to fresh. The part that’s good about having a Yorion deck with control elements is you start with 80 cards. By turn 7 you have also been able to deal lethal damage between Yorion and Gideon before the ultimate. Gideon is set up to still have 5 loyalty and be able to swing against an open board next turn if for some reason they aren’t dead.
Burn would be a consistent problem, but with Teferi and the ability to draw from Azorius’s plethora of control spells most other combo decks are going to be so highly interacted with that it should be consistent.
It might not be a tier 1 combo deck, but I think with more bounce effects in creatures added in that it could help.
May 24, 2020 8:07 a.m.
I just dont see the pay off being worth it jumping through all these hoops. I'd def add Sarkhan the Masterless to the combo
May 24, 2020 12:01 p.m.
I would add some Mizzium Skin and Turn Aside, otherwise say goodbye to Gideon.
May 24, 2020 1:26 p.m.
Realistically, your best bet for protecting Gideon from targeted removal is going to be Teferi's Time Twist. In addition to protecting him it has nice synergy with the Ozolith itself. Again, not really a competitively viable play pattern, but certainly the best method to protect Gideon with an instant speed spell in such a deck.
Detention Sphere could be an interesting piece as well as it's flexible in a Yorion deck.
But the best pieces for Yorion to work with are the ones that set up flicker loops easily which can make for lots of mana free Gideon flickers over a sequence of turns such as Felidar Guardian, Charming Prince, and Saheeli Rai (some of which are legal in Pioneer). Saheeli lets you flicker with Yorion on your turn twice (activation and end step), while the Prince nets a flicker on opposing endsteps and your endstep. With both you'd get 2 flickers on your turn and one at the opponent's end step with Ozolith gaining 13 loyalty counters per turn cycle. While this is more competitive than anything else in all likelihood, it's still got some weaknesses in both play pattern and deck construction that can potentially be exploited. As true Copy Cat is banned in Pioneer this is likely the best bet to make a Gideon+Ozolith combo truly function as the individual pieces are easier to sequence (Ozolith on 1, Prince on 2, Saheeli on 3, Gideon in 4, Yorion on 5) though card intensive enough to be inconsistent, especially in an 80 card deck. The upside is that with such pieces many of them play nice with Yorion itself and can provide some nice value while also digging for the combo components with cards like Omen of the Sea and Arcum's Astrolabe (not to mention the Prince itself can scry provided there's another means to flicker Yorion).
May 24, 2020 2:20 p.m.
PickleNutz says... #7
Felidar Guardian is unfortunately banned. I looked there first. Charming Prince brings the piece back at the end of the turn, so the ozolith interaction is not as seamless since counters can only be removed from it and placed back on creatures during the combat step. Saheeli though could be interesting, I’m not opposed to a shift to Jeskai.
Right now I have a direct 1 cost flicker in Void Snare that can target any non-land permanent, Teferi, Time Raveler’s minus ability, Yorion, Sky Nomad as a mostly guaranteed companion play, and I feel like one more full set would finish it.
May 24, 2020 2:30 p.m.
PickleNutz says... #8
Just returning any of the Gideon’s to the hand as a way to protect them with Void Snare as long as they are in creature form stacks Ozilith. The only true flicker is Yorion, and I’m drawing blanks on mana efficient spells that offer the same effect. Teferi's Time Twist is certainly being added.
May 24, 2020 2:32 p.m.
If you're gonna go with Void Snare then Eerie Interlude will protect, and flicker, more stuff.
May 24, 2020 4:24 p.m.
PickleNutz says... #10
Argy heck yeah dude, can always count on Argy for the searches haha.
May 24, 2020 6:18 p.m.
channelfireball12345 says... #11
Release to the Wind could potentially be nice. One of the most flexible and high-utility flicker spells out there IMO. In addition to serving the purpose of flickering your Gideon, it can serve as a foil to removal, among other means of interaction.
May 26, 2020 11:33 a.m.
channelfireball12345 says... #13
Peel from Reality and Run Away Together might be nice, versatile utility spells with some of that added value as well.
May 27, 2020 9:14 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #14
Jeskai Superfriends with a handful of Gideons, Sarkhan the Masterless and the Ozolith, as well as some cards like Oath of Teferi, Release to the Wind and Tef's Time Twist.
Sounds dank. Imagine ulting 3 walkers every turn.
jaymc1130 says... #2
As far as I know the interaction with Ozolith does work. There's no specification about the types of counters Ozolith creates, just that they must be identical in number and function to the creature that left the battlefield (be they +1/+1 counters, hexproof counters, etc).
For example, with Planebound Accomplice, Cloudstone Curio, and the Ozolith in play one could use the Accomplice to cheat in a Chandra, Torch of Defiance, activate her second ability to make , use the mana to pay for Accomplice to cheat in your Gideon bouncing Chandra, activate your Gideon's second ability, turning him into a creature that is also a planeswalker, use the remaining mana to cheat in Chandra again, bouncing Gideon and "moving" all counters on him to the Ozolith. At this point the loop can be repeated infinitely until you have an arbitrarily large number of loyalty counters on the Ozolith. Get Gideon into play again (probably want to hard cast so he's not sacrificed at the end step), make him a creature again, move to combat step, then move all counters onto him. He'd be a very big boi, but wouldn't be able to ult that turn (unless you've got some sort of a Chain Veil effect lying around in addition to all this).
The bigger question is why exactly do this? It's not something that really wins on the spot, requires an elaborate set up to become a true engine, and has a lot of vulnerable points where it could be disrupted.
Hilariously janky, absolutely. Efficient enough to be competitively viable? Not a chance when it's competing in the same space as Copy Cat combo, Lukka Emrakul combo, and against decks like Neo Brand, Dredge, and Burn that would simply be too fast for it.
May 24, 2020 12:36 a.m.