These cards should be banned
Pioneer forum
Posted on Jan. 6, 2020, 6:55 a.m. by Argy
Make your case for the cards you think need to be banned in the Pioneer format.
I would like to see the new Heliod banned.
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He will still sell to Standard players.
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Walking Ballista is a format staple. Removing it will weaken many decks, none of which are OP.
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This format is not Modern. We don't need to have infinite combos in it.
sliverjedi09 says... #2
Darkewarrior: you know how to counteract it? but you literally already said there wasn't a single card that could stop an on the play turn 1 thoughtseize...
March 7, 2020 5:33 p.m.
sliverjedi09 says... #3
Darkewarrior and why would you try to speak on behalf of other players? it just doesn't make sense that you would advocate for banning a card you don't think is a problem.
March 7, 2020 5:34 p.m.
Darkewarrior says... #4
Because my real problem is all of the whining annoying players complaining about it every 5 minutes because it’s “the only reason” They went 0-5 in a tournament when they only played 3 decks with thoughtseize in them! And only 1 had it mainboard!
March 7, 2020 5:50 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #6
sliverjedi09 thanks for having my back guy. Dude knows he’s wrong and that I did NOT make an incorrect assumption.
Darkewarrior You and i both know I’m correct. That’s why you STILL haven’t argued the substance of my post other than an assumption I made.
If you were truly an experienced player you would know that restricting Thoughtseize is absolutely pointless. No card has ever been restricted to a certain number of copies, OUTSIDE of vintage, AFAIK. You would have also known everything I said in my original response. Experienced players should work with newer players who complain about dumb stuff like Thoughtseize, instead of advocating on their behalf.
Either try to explain that Thoughtseize keeps the format in check, or learn to reconcile that fact yourself .
March 7, 2020 6:55 p.m. Edited.
TriusMalarky says... #7
I hope this isn't a necro, but here goes:
I personally like Smuggler's Copter. However, it needed to be banned for a while. The reason being is that Pioneer doesn't have enough efficient removal to get rid of it. As of Ikoria, Fatal Push is the only card in the format capable of easily getting rid of Copter without running maindeck artifact hate. White and red both have only 2 mana answers, and they were pretty bad. Blue has Unsummon, which sucks. The problem wasn't the effects, the problem was that we don't have enough interaction to deal with it yet. If they give white or red another 1 mana removal spell, then I could see it coming back. The format would be better for it.
After watching the meta a little bit, the Heliod/Walker combo doesn't seem too bad. The list I found is a perfectly reasonable slow prison deck. Now, I can see hating that sort of deck after playing against it a few times, but the fact that not only with TS and Push can kill the combo pretty easily for 1 mana, but Green and White and Red all have 1-2 mana responses that can stop it in or out of sideboard means that it's not too oppressive. Personally, it feels like a fad that'll stick around a bit, but eventually be pushed out in favor of other decks. At worst it's similar to Modern's Splinter Twin but slower, and that was a fine deck even if it did use an infinite combo to win.
Really, if you use an inf combo to win but have a perfectly normal control-esque gameplan, you're fine. The problem combos are the ones that take forever, like Lotus Breach, Eggs, 4 Horsemen, etc.
Dimir Inverter, on the other hand, is extremely difficult to interact with. It also already has black's perfect removal suite with TS and Push, meaning it's a combo/control build that requires you to race it. Personally, it's not healthy. I think Inverter should get the ax, mostly because the shell is already a great deck. Literally, you can remove 7-8 cards and replace them with another win condition, like maybe Tasigur. And Jace, Wielder of Mysteries can even stay. It's not like the deck's built around the combo -- it's just a really good shell with a win condition that's almost impossible to stop. Yes, 20% of the meta would lose $50 or so because of the banning of Inverter, but with $10 you can just switch win conditions and still have a tier 1 deck.
Veil of Summer can never come back. It's just Cryptic Command but for . I think a color pie shift and a 3 mana discount definitely covers the fact that it only hits two of the better colors in Pioneer. TS and Push, again, are what makes Black good, and we have DTT and TC, as well as Opt, Quench, and more that make Blue viable. Sorry, but situational Cryptic for 1 is too good.
Thoughtseize shouldn't be banned either -- we just need a budget replacement or a meaningful reprint. Either that or print a slightly worse version and let players send in their TSs for the new slightly worse card, and ban TS. Seriously, if the dump TS in uncommon in something like a Master's set, the problems with TS would disappear. It's just so good that it combined with Push make Black automatically tier one, but nobody wants to shell out $140 for these cards when premier lands in Pioneer hit $25 apiece tops. And that price tag is mostly Standard talking. Seriously, we need TS to either drop to $10 or less(which is still to high, but usable) or we need the exact same thing but it costs 3 life. That and we need White and Red to get some better interaction. Shock and Declaration in Stone being the best(or almost the best) is depressing. Maybe Bolt but can only hit creatures? Maybe Path but it gives 'em a land and some life and lets them scry?
Darkewarrior says... #1
Not correct, I have no problem playing against Thoughtseize, I’m an experienced player and I know how to counter act a player with discard on turn 1, it’s other players I have heard complaining over and over again about thoughtseize so I made this post.
March 7, 2020 5:30 p.m.