Just Chatting - Take 3
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Posted on April 24, 2015, 4:02 p.m. by Didgeridooda
Third time's a charm.
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elpokitolama says... #2
You're making a point when you're saying that I exagerated about activities with risk of death. But I believe you'll agree with me when I say that unlike drugs (and I count alcohol in it), nuts aren't a source of easy money for people who care more about money than their client's lives. It's basically the same for extreme sports.
But now, we do have the alcohol topic which is nice because during the Prohibition in the USA, the alcohol consumption lowered, while the risk encountered by drinking frelated alcohol was greater. But the demand for alcohol has always been high, due to its social and traditionnal aspect. Because of this, alcohol won't be illegal again -even if its damages are still terrifying, 40% of car accident in France are caused by alcohol overconsumption.
So, should we start doing the same thing for other drugs, so those would become too attached to our society for us to remove those? And let the deaths led by the consomation of those become a common part of death rates? I still believe that it should not happen.
Also, aren't you the one that always say to Femme_Fatale to stop doing generalizations? Generalizating deaths due to products dangerous for pretty much every living being (in these proportions) to nuts allergy is... Nuts. Same goes for extreme sports, which can be way more easily handled by the competant authorities than traffics of any kinds.
Other thing that bothered me: "You also can't be addicted to cannabis", I've got too much friends addicted to it. By the way, if I'm not making a scientific/sociologic research myself, I'm trying to gather what I can from media to learn as much as I can and then make my mind on it. You can't just trust only one research, especially if its about social sciences. " You also have not addressed the point that drug use could potentially make the state a lot of money - and already does from smoking and alcohol" I'm not sure what you meant there, but if you're saying that legalization would help governments to save a lot of money thanks to this, I agree with you at 100%.
My main point on drugs, etc was, stay and (maybe not, who knows!) will be that the only way to "save" people from this is prevention. People must know and understand the risks and have a long term vision of their actions (which is often not the case for teenagers). And this is right for drugs, for extreme sports, and for nuts if you're allergic. Suicide is completely different from this, but it has to be prevented. I hope, even if I know it might not be the case that you've never saw how much the prematured death of a loved one can destroy not just one, but many lives. Implying that I'm just an arrogant prick that has his own opinions and so much pride that I won't go ahead and read studies nor I will ackowledge your arguments is extremly insulting. I do read studies, by the way (especially the ones published in the famous French scientific review Sciences et Vie).
About the Nazis again, I did understood your point now, but you've still haven't got mine... When I talk about the Treaty of Versailles, I summarize pretty much every aspect of Germany in 1930: its industries were taken over by France, because of a stupid revenge feeling suffered after the loss of Alsace and Lorraine before the WW I, unallowed to have its own army, suffering even more from the economic crisis than its European Neighbors, a despair so deep it allowed a part of German a) to share Nazis ideas b) to overlook those. But Hitler himself had a great influence on all of this: I've read a testimony from a German Jewish that one day went to one of Hitler's meetings to see why he was rising like this. This Jewish suprised himself doing the nazi salute while scnading Hitler's name at the end of the meeting.
Last point, when you're saying "You are just making vague, ill-thought out points with no conclusive backing", please keep in mind that I can't speak English freely, since it's not my mother tongue and its way harder for me to argue and to construct an argument in this language than it is for you (who have experience in this domain too)! So do not take each of my words litteraly, because it is normal that I'm not able to be as clear as water when I try to make my points. :<
May 4, 2015 1:49 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #3
CanadianShinobi that why I never used the term antisemitism, and always used racism instead! Antisemitism exist in Europe since... Way before nazis were born. Also, thanks for the little paragraph and the "technical" aspect :>
May 4, 2015 1:53 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #4
The media is a terrible source for reliable statistics.
Also, I'd like for you to indicate what source is telling you that Prohibition reduced alcohol consumption. Alcohol consumption became less trackable, but historians seem to still be and odds over whether consumption declined or not.
As for the greater conversation, I do not recognize the authority of the government to prohibit me from engaging in behavior that induces exclusively individual risk.
May 4, 2015 1:56 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #5
Also Chief, if you could have explained yourself more clearly at the beggining... I mean, you were talking only about nazis. And yeah, I do think determinism exist, but I do not think we're talking of the same thing: it's not the place in society that makes someone, but it is this one's experiences. So of course, more "common" experiences influence more people (when somebody use this kind of experience, it's called manipulation after all, so why should it be so wrong?) ('/@-@)/
May 4, 2015 1:57 p.m.
Brandon walks in to a wall of text and nearly faints when he sees it's only 10 comments down
May 4, 2015 1:58 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #8
Epochalyptik that's why one should always read the same information coming from sources with different opinions on it! Yup, it's also true that I used a shortcut when I talked about alcohol consommation reduction. But in the end, my point was that it was too deeply anchored in our society that laws couldn't remove it from people now so it doesn't change a lot of things here. x)
About "individual risks", I find a little bit stupid not to tell people that there's a risk of dying/being armed by doing something. But drugs are more perverse since there can be an addiction mechanic setting up, so in my opinion (and hopefully not only mine) it's the reason why prevention has to be harder on this than on the rest. And of course it includes alcohol!
Also, by media you have access to many studies, but yeah, scientific reviews are far more reliable.
May 4, 2015 2:04 p.m.
Epochalyptik - Yeah I agree with that, although it gets tricky with drugs because they do have knock on effects on others. High prices of drugs drive crime committed against others. Families are typically also affected. In general though I dont think prohibition is the right way to go.
elpokitolama - Cannabis is /really/ questionably addictive. In the physical sense of the word. It is not. It is somewhat psychologically. But not severely. It's really borderline.
If you want more information read about drug rates in portugal in particular. They have DECLINED since legalisation.
CanadianShinobi, elpokitolama - I didn't want to particularly go on about the Nazis but I was just demonstrating that there were a large number of factors that resulted in their rise to power. I understand that the treaty of versailles was very significant. I understand that the hung government was also significant. My point was just that I do not agree that saying 'it was Versailles' is strictly true. That's all.
May 4, 2015 2:06 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #10
I never wanted to say that is was the only reason and that it lead ti 100% Germans turning into monstruous racist monsters! I really need to be more precize when I try to write something in English. Well, about addiction to cannabis, I guess it's to find the same sensations again and again, kinda the same as for tobacco, I guess!
Also, I do not try to troll here, but I d'like to thank you for the discussion: it really helps me to practice English! But next time, if I'm not clear, just ask me back what I meant (same goes for my sometimes shitty syntax) :>
May 4, 2015 2:16 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
There's certainly residual or structural risk in some cases (Chief, correct me if there's a technical term for this idea), but controlling the behavior of the end user does not appear, statistically, to be an effective means of controlling the risk posed by the structure.
For example, banning heroin does not remove the heroin cartels and distribution networks, and it makes those entities more dangerous because they are now forced to violently defend and covertly distribute an illegal substance (assuming here that intent to distribute or manufacture is constant in both legal and illegal contexts).
Now, I'm not saying that heroin is safe to use, distribute, or manufacture. But the government is not at liberty to tell me that I may not use heroin because its effects may be detrimental to me. The government may present the case that the heroin industry is a present danger, but again we return to the idea of individual control being an ineffective means to achieve structural control.
May 4, 2015 3:22 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #13
Also assuming that the cartels haven't bought out the legislation anyways.
Also what's good to drink under 20$
May 4, 2015 3:25 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #14
Depends. Per bottle? How big a bottle (750mL, 1.75L)? What do you like? What have you tried?
May 4, 2015 3:27 p.m.
No. I completely agree. And you explanation is clear enough; I know no other language that could present it more clearly. Research also suggests that legalisation encourages individuals to go to treatment instead of prison. If they go to treatment their usage (and the negative consequences of it) stop. If they go to prison it is far more likely not to. The paradox appears to be that prohibition actually increases the negative consequences of drugs on the self and others, whereas decriminalization drives successful treatment programs. We know in case study countries that prison rates have fallen and therapy rates have increased.
There's a large gap between decriminalisation and encouragement, for reference to all reading this who think I'm crazy.
In a theoretical, ideal world if I could completely stop the import of all dangerous substances that served no legitimate, quantifiable, pharmaceutical purpose would I? Yeah I think I would. If the state could absolutely 100% guarantee this; I would not be against it. I assume Epochalyptik you would be against it? However as the case stands it is not effective and it exacerbates the consequences so I am against it.
Is guaranteed protection more important than freedom? Interesting question because then we get into security law.
May 4, 2015 3:30 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #16
What have i tried? Smirnoff ice and once srawberry wine
That's it. Today i allow myself to drink without shame...yes underaged drinking made me feel ashamed lol
May 4, 2015 3:31 p.m.
Mix starwberry juice with rum. Seriously. It's amazing.
I only drink cocktails and wine.
May 4, 2015 3:36 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #18
That actually sounds pretty amazing. I may or may not be drunk tonight.
May 4, 2015 3:38 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #19
Uhm... Lemonade guyz? :'>
Mixed with white Martini, of course (this one, I know my translation of the name is stricly incorrect but I really don't know what is the English name. So, unless you're going to France one day, this comment is strictly useless to you).
Also, Epoch do you have any ideas of what is happening with the site today? It crashed several time...
May 4, 2015 3:40 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #22
Get yourself a boilermaker if you have a good local pub. Else try a White Russian (milk, vodka, kahlua) or a whiskey sour.
May 4, 2015 3:45 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
Boilermakers are shots of whiskey paired with beers. If you've got a good pub, chances are decent that they'll be able to pair a lesser-known whiskey with a craft beer for something that's worth ordering.
May 4, 2015 3:49 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #25
That sounds really expensive. Also beer and i don't get along. It tastes like literal dirt to me
May 4, 2015 3:50 p.m.
White Russians. The alcoholic drink. Used to contain coffee, but now they mostly dont.
May 4, 2015 4:07 p.m.
Hate finals so much. At least my Spanish final was easy. Blech.
May 4, 2015 4:08 p.m.
Guys, I love you all with all my heart, so just promise me you guys won't use drugs, and do me a favor and add some tl;dr's to the ending of your arguments.
May 4, 2015 4:13 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #35
Like....what can we say to that????
We are not sex workers nor do most of us know anything about it :3
May 4, 2015 4:15 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #36
I wake up this morning and the first thing I see on JC is sex. I check the site during lunch and I see more conversation about sex. Then I come home, log in, and what is there? SEX.
Not saying that you guys should change though :)
May 4, 2015 4:35 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #37
:( no one wanted to talk history. ChiefBell used his Britishness to wound me once again. Alas!
May 4, 2015 4:36 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #39
I love history. It's the subject i exelled at in school though I'm afraid i have nothing to contribute
May 4, 2015 4:40 p.m.
White Russian's taste... odd.
Vodka, coffee liqueur, and cream. I don't really like it, makes me feel kinda ill. But i've heard people swear by em.
May 4, 2015 5:26 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #41
I am certain i will be hit by a car soon in this city
Red light, crosswalk is green, car doesn't even slow down let alone stop Before turning thus coming within a foot of hitting me.
Fuck drivers
May 4, 2015 5:39 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #42
@ChiefBell: You're correct; I would choose not to.
Though it may indeed be beneficial (in terms of a harm to reward or harm to happiness comparison) to eliminate some things, I am not at liberty to make that decision for other people. I value individual agency very highly, and it would be disingenuous of me to decide what others may and may not do (provided those actions present no immediate harm to other individuals).
May 4, 2015 5:41 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #46
I hate AP chem tests.
So, meh.
Also I killed my hands by playing piano for an hour.
May 4, 2015 6:49 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #47
can someone make a standard legal splintertwin deck plz?
May 4, 2015 6:51 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #50
Ya know there might be a way to do it. Use the hippocamph and....something. Is there a psuedo twin card in standard? I thought there was
CanadianShinobi says... #1
ChiefBell are you using cannabis in the sense of it being weed? Because every drug has some level of addiction. Even weed.
More importantly... HISTORY!
On the subject of Nazis if you want to get super technical, they were never actually voted into power to lead the government. The highest they ever achieved was roughly one third of the vote. However, Hindenburg believed he could manipulate Hitler and the Nazis to further the conservative agenda. Furthermore, considering the political and social instability of the Weimar Republic during this time Hindenberg also sought to use the charisma of Hitler and the Nazis to establish stability throughout the country. What ended up happening however was that Hindenburg utilized Article 48 to grant himself emergency powers which essentially turned Germany into an authoritarian state. Hitler then politically out maneuvered his supposed allies and managed to pass the Enabling Act of 1933. Hitler and the Nazis were never voted into power, they grabbed power through a series of political loopholes which were perfectly legal due to the fundamental flaws of the Weimar Constitution.
On the subject of antisemitism. Antisemitism has been a profound feature throughout European history. In Germany we recognize this more due to the Nazis, however, it was never a reason for why the Nazis gained power. Or, if it was, then it was a very minor reason. What is often forgotten is that Nazis did not merely target Jewish people, in fact, Jewish peoples only became targeted when the Nazis were firmly in control. The main fear that the Nazis propagated was that of the Communists and the weakness of the Weimar government.
elpokitolama and ChiefBell my work here is done. Thank you both for providing a suitable context so that I could divulge history lessons.
May 4, 2015 1:27 p.m.