15% of meta is twin, 12% is pod, time for ban?
Spoilers, Rumors, and Speculation forum
Posted on April 23, 2014, 12:26 p.m. by Tiktacy
What do you guys think about moderns incredible bias towards twin and pod decks lately?
I'm thinking that we need at least some kind of hindrance to these decks dominating the format. 10-14% is fine, but 20% of decks being the same combo(Kiki-twin) is just too much.
I personally think they should unban Bloodbraid Elf then ban kiki-jiki, the mirror breaker. Jund took a serious hit after losing their best card, and to Jund is the deck that helps keep combo in check. By banning Kiki-jiki, wizards effectively kills the inferior of the 2 combo builds using pod and smacks patriot twin right where it hurts. Unbanning bloodbraid can help put combo back in check since Jund is likely to be played more as a result.
Twin combos are just too consistent with Kiki and Jund being the pitiful excuse for meta that it is now. What do you guys think?
I'm going to go in the corner and cry... FYI OP when speaking of pod the majority will think 'melira pod' which is not anything like 'twin' or close to 'kiki pod'. Anyways, please, a deck isn't dominating the meta when it's only 15% of the meta, or even 30%, jund was up to 75% when bbe got nixed. That's a problem.
April 23, 2014 12:40 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #4
I have zero issues with either of these two decks. Sure, I need to sideboard for them, but... That's it?
If you're not good enough a player to beat either of these decks the Nteenth time that you play them in a given day, you either need to make a better deck, learn how to sideboard against them properly, or...Stop playing modern if it bothers you so much?
Bloodbraid is a format breaking card, so I disagree that it should be unbanned. Banning kiki jiki pretty much takes combo away as an option from everyone, and that's it. Combo is something that Magic does. It's not that hard to beat, either. Just run some disruption and kill spells, or try Rakdos Charm .
I don't think anything needs banning / unbanning right now in modern, things seem pretty stable right now. MTGTop8 says that Affinity, Jund, and hatebears are just as viable as either of the strategies that you mentioned. So I really don't see the problem here.
April 23, 2014 12:44 p.m.
As long as there is combo, there will be people who hate on it.
April 23, 2014 12:51 p.m.
I don't have a problem with either of the combos, but I think what we wizards wants is to maintain diversity as much as possible. Perhaps bloodbraid is a bit too powerful, but I think wizards should be willing to experiment with unbanning more cards. In particular, I want to see Jund come back into the format.
I think in the near future, storm, twin, and pod are going to push combo to being over 60% of the metagame.
April 23, 2014 12:58 p.m.
Regardless of what bans are made, modern will be a combo format for as long as there is not a FoW type card available. It is simply inevitable with a card pool that large.
Also, just unbanning BBE would be some what problematic, as we already know that will lead to an even more stagnant meta. I think we should simply unban JTMS... :P
April 23, 2014 1:05 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #8
Messing with a ban list as much as you're suggesting just makes players lose faith in both wizards and in buying cards in general. "Oh no, this deck is #1 this week, my cards might get banned!" Also, the number of price spikes that will happen because of speculators picking which cards will and wont get unbanned in a given month will pretty much kill modern because it will inhibit new players from entering the format.
April 23, 2014 1:07 p.m.
AnagonLordofSnakes says... #9
You should go into modern expecting every deck to be combo anyway.
April 23, 2014 1:08 p.m.
14.4% of decks use splinter twin and 11.5% of decks use Kiki-jiki, so I assumed roughly half the decks using Kiki-jiki are also using splinter twin and hat the other half was likely pod.
To expand further on the issue: combos in magic have a very special place in modern, but currently, they comprise 44% and rising. To me, this seems like an issue, because it prevents new innovative decks from showing their face in tournaments because they all explode by the time they hit turn 3-4. If they want to get new players into a competitive format, why do they let decks like that exist in such huge numbers?
April 23, 2014 1:12 p.m.
Honestly I feel like the meta is really balanced right now. You can't keep banning cards in the top decks just because they are on top, if Wizards did that then there would be a never ending ban list. DRS was banned because it held other decks down from being playable, I can't say the same for anything in the top decks now, sure they are quick, but modern is a fast format. Hey, Affinity makes up 9%, looks like we need to watch out. Just sideboard effectively and any deck can be competitive.
April 23, 2014 1:40 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #13
Torpor Orb ... But seriously give Courser Jund a spin if you want to see it's place in the Meta. My local meta has about 4 twin decks, 2 pod decks(both Melira) , some UWR, and a couple Affinity decks, and I do just fine when I play correctly. Sideboarding is important, as it can really take you from a decent match up to just blow outs. Torpor Orb , Shatterstorm , Ancient Grudge , Rakdos Charm , Nihil Spellbomb are all really easy to use SB cards that make match ups better, and usually pump Goyf XD!
Jund has a sweet suite of removal, hand disruption, and general answers to the creature based combo decks. It can compete in almost any match up, and it's fun to just sit there in topdeck mode with your opponent. Maybe that's the sadist in me :P. Jund, in my humble opinion, is sitting in a good spot as combo becomes popular.
April 23, 2014 2:54 p.m.
Hmm, all good points everyone!
I agree with most of you on the point about twin and pod, they are definitely not unbeatable. But there is still something that really gets my goat.
When players first start playing in modern tournaments, what the hell are they suppose to do against twin and pod? I mean, I guess I feel like players should at the very least have a CHANCE at beating those decks, but as it stands, they are so insanely powerful that you don't stand a chance unless you are playing a tier deck, and even then they probably won't stand a chance.
Affinity you can sideboard against, same goes for living end and storm and all the other decks in modern, but twin and pod are both so incredibly powerful that most sideboard hate won't even phase them, because their backup plans are just as good as their combo. Jund is equally as capable of doing that, but Jund is only 4% of meta right now and it's dropping like a rock...
Speaking of rock, the rock is currently going up, so that is at the very least happening.
April 23, 2014 3:05 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #16
Removal, and the simple fact that it's hard to pick up a format and immediately win.
Modern has plenty of good cards in it, so, again in my humble opinion, to be good is more of a result of practice than the deck one is piloting. For example, I was playing against a friend of mine, he pilots his Melira Pod at a certain level. His friend who is learning Melira Pod is not as good of a pilot, and was much easier to play against/beat.
Another example would be a play I made. I needed a removal spell, but didn't have one. I had a Courser of Kruphix , Chandra, Pyromaster , and a Fetch land out. Fetch --> Land from the top --> the newly revealed Abrupt Decay , played by Chandra's 0 saved me. While it's a simple interaction, it is one that many new players may overlook if playing Jund for the first time, and then they would have lost. The same principles apply to any deck.
April 23, 2014 3:38 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #17
15% is too high? Seriously? MBD called at 23%. They want your attention.
April 23, 2014 3:46 p.m.
vampirelazarus says... #18
Also, it should be noted that your source says those two are 26% of the combo part of the meta. Your argument didn't bring into account the 57% of the meta that isn't combo.
April 23, 2014 4:35 p.m.
blackmarker90 says... #19
Standard is a whole different beast compared to modern. Modern is like a well coordinated machine, standard is like that spastic, jerky, retard fish that you feel sorry for and just throw back.
April 23, 2014 4:45 p.m.
SkyRaider42 says... #20
Here's why Pod or kiki-jiki doesn't deserve to be banned:
The decks aren't similar AT ALL. The only thing they have in common is Birthing Pod
Both pod decks take a lot of experience playing them for you to be decent at playing them. It is not a deck you can pick up and win a grand prix with.
Pod is balanced. It can only be activated at sorcery, only once per turn, and on turn 3-4.
Banning Birthing Pod would destroy an entire archetype. That is not what WOTC wants for modern.
Banning Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker would actually destroy the entire deck kiki pod.
Unbanning Bloodbraid Elf would overpower jund too much. It might bring it back up to 75% of the meta. With no birthing pod decks at all and Jund overpowered, modern's meta would be F@*&ked up royally.
Finally, people need to trust Wotc. They have taken modern in as their baby and will do what they can to keep it alive and thriving.
April 23, 2014 5:05 p.m.
SkyRaider42 says... #21
Also, pod is a combo deck, but not a degenerate combo deck, which WOTC hates
April 23, 2014 5:06 p.m.
Well, if GP Minneapolis is dominating by 5 pods and a twin deck like GP Richmond, then we might see some changes. Until then, it's really hard to say what should and shouldn't be banned. I'm just giving some speculation.
April 23, 2014 5:11 p.m.
SkyRaider42 I beg to differ. Every bit of experienced commentary on the deck I've seen say it plays out like a midrange deck. It just happens to have a few slots dedicated to a combo finish. There are even MUs where you board out the tutors and even the combo itself.
April 23, 2014 5:17 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #24
You have to remember that going into GP Richmond 30% of the field was UWR deck variations, so everyone may have been expecting that. When the dust settled something like 50% of the day 2 field was Affinity, and so on and so forth. Tournament preparations like that also may have favored Pod that weekend.
April 23, 2014 5:21 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #25
@blackmarker90 Don't be like that. Don't be that guy. There's nothing wrong with you playing Modern and enjoying it, but don't take a dump on other formats because they don't fit your personal preference. The only difference between Standard and Modern is the size of the pool of available cards. That doesn't suddenly make it a "spastic, jerky, retard fish" of a format, and the players don't sympathize with anything like it. Those of us that play Standard still like to see it balanced accordingly, and it can be. It just isn't right now. My point was perfectly valid.
April 23, 2014 5:29 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #26
Because it's been several posts and my first was injected with sarcasm, I'll say it again (without the sarcasm).
It seems silly to be upset about a deck holding 15% of the meta when standard sees MBD at 23%.
April 23, 2014 5:30 p.m.
SkyRaider42 says... #27
Thank you, Blakkhand. I have been thinking about your comment, and I think pod is more of a toolbox/midrange deck. It's hoping to find cards for the right situation and survive long enough to get them. Being a melira pod player myself, I apolagize. I think I have only won once with a combo, and it was with Archangel of Thune and Spike Feeder .
April 23, 2014 5:33 p.m.
blackmarker90 says... #28
Ok, maybe my comment was a little bit out of place, but with that said, standard is a format that can (and does) stagnate very quickly at times. Modern is a very fluid format that sees it's T1 decks rotate fairly regularly. I'm not saying modern can't stagnate it ust seems to do it at a much slower pace than standard does.
I play standard as well and I have been playing against the same three to four archetypes every week at FNM: MUD, MBD, R/G or Jund Monsters, and some form of U/W/x control. Those are the big hitters in standard right now. I know there is room for the T1.5/2 decks, but find me a standard GP or SCG Open that hasn't been won by MUD, MBD, or U/W/x control.
Now on to modern. The overall format has a fairly diverse meta with many different decks that are viable at any given moment in time, but since the banning of DRS it has allowed the man variations of Pod to more or less take over. The total percentage of Pod decks is not overwhelming like Jund was with BBE, and while it is wininning in big numbers at many high profile tournaments there is not enough justification at this point in time to ban a whole archetype.
All in all I feel that Pod and it's many variants use the tools that are available to them in the best possible way, therefore creating a very tough, but very beatable, midrange combo deck.
April 23, 2014 10:34 p.m.
trentfaris242 says... #29
Fair enough point, blackmarker90. I agree with everything you just said.
April 24, 2014 12:18 a.m.
Yeah, sadly in Standard you can't just play with a certain playstyle you like and expect to win.
There are clear contenders, and if you want to be competitive, you got to pick one of them, and there aren't many choices.
I for example really like BUG.
If i ever dare play that in FNM right now, i won't stand a chance.
The only reason really i don't start Modern is the cheer price to get started.
If it wasn't so expensive, i for sure would ditch out Standard immediately.
April 24, 2014 12:55 a.m.
blackmarker90 says... #31
B/U/G can do well at the FNM level, i have a list that i would regularly 3-1 with, beating MBD, MUD, and any control variant on a regular basis. The list i have still needs some work, but it has a good amount of strengths vs many of the T1 decks right now.
April 24, 2014 1:03 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #32
Birthing Pod itself will never be banned. If the numbers somehow get out of hand Chord of Calling will be on the chopping block instead.
April 24, 2014 10:58 a.m.
April 24, 2014 11:07 a.m.
trentfaris242 says... #34
Chord of Calling is the best place to hit Pod. It will hit all types of Pod decks but not decimate it into uselessness.
April 24, 2014 12:42 p.m.
sertsew123 says... #35
Now I am almost exclusively a standard player, but I have been getting into modern and edh just a little bit. I don't know everything about modern, but based on what I do know, I can say this; 12 and 15 percent aren't that bad. It gets bad when it's 50,60,70, or more percent. I can't say I have played in a single modern tournament, I have played at fnm. As most of you probably know, at fnm, there will be about 15% mono black devotion. However there is still so much creativity, innovation, and so many people who do completely jank strategies that usually fail but when they work can whoop the backside of anybody playing anything. With the bigger card pool modern has, I can only imagine and hope about how creative and diverse the environment is.
Long live the johny player, the timmy player, and anyone who plays for the creativity.
Rayenous says... #2
...if 15% is Twin... and 12% is Pod... and you think 10-14% is fine...
How is 15% really that much more worthy of bannings than 14%...
...And how do these 2 different decks constitute "20% of the decks being the same combo?". - I've played against both, and they seemed quite different.
April 23, 2014 12:30 p.m.